Talk:Alliance 90/The Greens

Former names and variants in the states: Obscure source for party origins?

The reference to "Prostitution: An Economic Perspective on its Past, Present and Future" for the origins of the party seems rather obscure to me. I don't have a better book to refer to, but the Britannica mentions the student, environmental, and peace movement. Would that be a less niche source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loris Bennett (talk • contribs) 17:04, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Electorate

The major of Stuttgart is now from the CDU, so Stuttgart should be removed I guess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:de:e70b:b800:3dfe:54de:3dc5:31f0 (talk) 15:00, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Nuclear weapons in Germany

This information was removed (diff), with the following edit summary: "relevance? not really a dominant internal debate." I think it is relevant and should be included.

The party remains divided over issues such as nuclear disarmament and U.S. nuclear weapons on German territory. Some Greens want Germany to sign the United Nations' Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons.

References

-- Tobby72 (talk) 19:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for starting a discussion. Why do you think this is a notable stance. I'd rate it as one out of hundreds of political positions of the party. Service: Quote from the 2021 party program: Wir wollen ein Deutschland frei von Atomwaffen und einen Beitritt Deutschlands zum VN-Atomwaffenverbotsvertrag. Eine Welt ohne Atomwaffen gibt es nur über Zwischenschritte. Als ersten Schritt sollte Deutschland als Beobachter an der Vertragsstaatenkonferenz teilnehmen. Darüber hinaus wollen wir in der kommenden Legislaturperiode folgende Prozesse initiieren: eine internationale Initiative zur Reduzierung der Zahl von Atomwaffen, einen Verzicht der NATO auf jeden Erstschlag und eine breite öffentliche Debatte über die veralteten Abschreckungsdoktrinen des Kalten Krieges." Nillurcheier (talk) 10:23, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Not an expert on the Greens by any means but it seems their stance on nuclear weapons was quite a foundational issue in the founding of the party, and still appears to be an important issue to this day. I don't think there is any problem with a short description of the party's stance being mentioned.Yeoutie (talk) 03:56, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mff2020.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Everyone is talking about Germany; we're talking about the weather!"

Am I correct in assuming this was a reference to this slogan and its ironic adoption by SDS? Prezbo (talk) 13:12, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Political position

I find it difficult to agree that for a long time the absence of "Centre" in the infobox of this article seems to take too much account of its political position in international politics. The party is one of two parties in Germany, supported by centrist voters along with the FPD, recognized as a centrist and classified as a centrist political party. Germany's political environment is so liberal that it is a clear centrist in German political standards. It is one of the most moderate Greens in the world. Moreover, the mainstream members of the party, including Annalena Baerbock, are clearly liberals. Check out the Radical centrism article, too!

Therefore, the political position that should be written in infobox is "Centre to centre-left" rather than "Centre-left", and this article must use the "Category:Liberal parties in Germany". Mureungdowon (talk) 11:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

It seems that some rightist trolls claimed left-wing a few years ago because this party is culturally liberal than the SPD, but that's a really worthless opinion. We don't call FPD is right-wing just because they are economically more conservative than CDU. Ask CDU or SPD supporters in Germany. Greens, like the FPD, are centrist in German politics. German Wikipedia also defines a party as a left-liberal party. (Especially in German Wikipedia, SPD is described as social democracy and democratic socialism, but The Greens is described as left-liberalism.) Mureungdowon (talk) 11:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Writing down Greens' political position the same as SPD has a big problem. Centrist voters in the CDU preferred Greens to SPD, and Greens showed a tendency to centrist votting above SPD. Greens mainstream supports a liberal economy and not a social-democratic economy. Moreover, they are more of an centre-right Atlanticist, more of a CDU or FDP than a SPD diplomatically. (It doesn't matter that Greens envisioned a coalition with The Left. The Left is left-wing, but not a far-left party unlike the far-right AfD.)

If "Centre" does not go into the political position of infobox in the Greens article, we should also remove "Centre" in the infobox in the FDP article. The FDP is far more right-wing economically than the CDU. In Germany, Greens are considered "radical centrist", but FDP is not "radical centrist", FDP is right-leaning or libertarian. Mureungdowon (talk) 12:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Users who agree or disagree, please participate in the Talk. Mureungdowon (talk) 12:17, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

If there is a caveat "do not add.." in the ideology section, it would be better to follow this hint and at least go to talk first. Anyhow, Mureungdowon added "green liberalism", which is not wrong per se, but carries the risk of misinterpretation, since liberalism has a pretty different meaning in German vs US-english. Regarding the addition of "center" to the position: I am fine with that, if well sourced.Nillurcheier (talk) 15:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

In Germany, 'liberal' has a rather right wing meaning. So "Green liberalism" could be my mistake. However, the source clearly states that Greens' policy (especially economic policy) is 'linksliberale' (left-liberal). The term social liberal or left-liberal has a moderate/centrist meaning in Germany. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

I oppose both the addition of “green liberalism” (the referenced source does not even contain the term “ Grüner Liberalismus” in German, and should be removed ASAP) and “centre” to the Infobox (“centre to centre-left” is redundant).— Autospark (talk) 19:56, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The problem with "redundant" is that the FDP article also refers to its political position as "Centre to centre-right." Unless the political position of infobox in the FDP article is changed to "Centre-right", it is very unfair to write "Centre-left" only in Greens. In Germany, FDP is considered less centrist than Greens. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:43, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, you support the removal of "Centre" in the FDP article as well. I don't think "Centre" should be removed from the Greens article unless "Centre" is me in the FDP article. It is true that in Germany the FDP and Greens break into more moderate or centrist parties than the CDU or SPD. And there is no phrase green-liberal from the source, but there is a phrase social-liberal (Linksliberale) Mureungdowon (talk) 21:18, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Mureungdowon, thank you for replacing "green liberalism" with "social liberalism" in the Infobox, and supplying references (I would accept "Linksliberale" in the sources as an approximation of social-liberal). As for the "centre to centre-left" (or "centre to centre-right") issue, I have no problems at all with centre/centrist being described (with references) in the article body, whether in the lede or Ideology section or both. It's just that listing both specifically in the Infoboxes feel redundant for most political parties.--Autospark (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

I do not oppose centrist to centrist leftist descriptions, but I think it is necessary to include some leftist descriptions even as factions because there is a case in which the Green Party is described as leftist in a BBC article. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58570507 Lazt9312 (talk) 08:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

centrist leftist->Centrist to Center Left Lazt9312 (talk) 08:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

What do you think of writing Historical, Now Minority: and left as faction? Historically, the Green Party has been a staunchly left-wing party, so that explanation seems good. Lazt9312 (talk) 02:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Opposition. SPD has historically been a "left-wing", but it is not written in the infobox of the Social Democratic Party of Germany article. Mureungdowon (talk) 03:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I support only listing “Centre-left” in the position section of the Infobox. The stronger, non-journalist references support centre-left, and in actuality, the party is a balance between moderates and left-leaning politicians.-- Autospark (talk) 09:34, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

In German politics, the FDP and GREENs are considered centrist. However, CDU and SPD are not considered centrist. We do not include the "Right-wing" in the political position of the CDU article, nor do we include the "Left-wing" in the political position of the SPD article. If the ideology is not to include "Centrism", there is no way to explain in infobox that FDP and GREENs are more centrist than CDU and SPD. Thus, "Centre" should never be removed from the GREENs' political position. (If the political position in the infobox of the GREENs article should be described as "Centre-left", the political position in the infobox of the SPD article should be described as "Centre-left to left-wing".) Mureungdowon (talk) 11:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

There are several instances of the German Green Party being described as "left-wing". Therefore, as I said above, I think it is necessary to simply write down the center left or write the left as an internal faction.

Answer: The SPD was left wing 'a long time ago'. However, the Green Party was a left wing 'not long ago', and there are still many left wing factions within the party (unlike the SPD, where many left wing factions left). Lazt9312 (talk) 13:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

There is no need to bring Korean sources to German politics. Furthermore, South Korea's conservative media lacks credibility because they view green politics more negatively than social democracy. All the English media I looked up described GREENS as more centrist than SPD. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:28, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

In fact, I agree that the Korean media is critical of green politics. However, it would be better to write the leftist as an internal faction as well, since the document must be written by the source in fact. As others have said above, I am neutral about writing as a mere center left. Lazt9312 (talk) 03:11, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Opposition. We do not include historical positions in the political positions of other existing German political parties. Rather, I believe that even the center-left should be removed from the political position of this article. GREENs is a radical centrist. Mureungdowon (talk) 05:28, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

I think your position is understandable enough. But I can't help that there are sources that describe the Green Party as "leftist". Historically, the Green Party has been dominated by left-wing ecosocialists. Lazt9312 (talk) 13:11, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

You rely too much on Korean sources. The party is considered more centrist than free-market supporters like the FDP, and it has also identified its sources within the article. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:38, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Strongly oppose any notion of removing centre-left from the Infobox and replacing it with a WP:SYNTH analysis such as “radical centrist”. The Greens are a centre-left party – arguably more centrist in recent years than they were historically, but the description centre-left is still the most well-supported and accurate.-- Autospark (talk) 22:20, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

You seem to be misunderstanding something. I want to keep GREENs political position "Centre to centre-left". Mureungdowon (talk) 23:29, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

In fact, any narrative that has held up for more than a month is center-left. I think what the person above here is talking about is maintaining center-left narrative restoration. But I'm more of a center-left I think it would be a good idea to write centrist to centre-left, and write historical and current minority: leftist in internal factions. Lazt9312 (talk) 09:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

If there are no objections, there are options to keep the original center-left narrative and to add leftists as an internal faction to the current narrative. Lazt9312 (talk) 14:24, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Centre-left listed alone in the Infobox is the preferable option; internal factions should not be listed in Infoboxes of political parties – such factions should be described in the article body, with adequate sources to back up the existence of said factions.-- Autospark (talk) 14:56, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

German voters perceive the FDP as not radical centrist party, but GREENs as a radical centrist party. The description "xxxx to xxxx" is clearly necessary. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:07, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me that Lazt9312 relies too much on Korean media sources, Korean Wikipedia and Namuwiki. Please, this is an English Wikipedia article covering German politics. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the infobox, the Greens' ideology should be only "green politics" (but I do not oppose "social liberalism) and their position only "centre-left" (the party is indeed halfway between the centre and the left-wing; it was originally left-wing, but then moved to the centre). --Checco (talk) 20:31, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Opposition. In German politics, unlike the conservative right or free-market right (like the CDU and the FDP) but GREENs is a place where radical centrist are not the best. The political position of GREENs is "Centre to centre-left", and if only one should be written, simply "Centre". Mureungdowon (talk) 22:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I will insist on narration by source. I agree with the simple centre-left statement above.

I don't object to the green politics social liberalism narrative, but I think pro-Europeanism should be put in place. Lazt9312 (talk) 06:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Among the major political parties in Germany, GREENs are considered the most centrist, and I think it makes no sense not to include "Centre" in the political position. Mureungdowon (talk) 06:51, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I understand your position. But then, maintaining the center-center left and writing the left as an internal faction seems to be the consensus that reflects your position the most. Lazt9312 (talk) 13:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

If there is no objection, I will write it historically as an inside faction. Lazt9312 (talk) 13:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

The Greens are surely not the most centrist party in Germany. Historically they were left-wing, now they are centre-left. It is arguable whether they are to the left or the right of the centre-left SPD. It depends on the issues. This said, while I obviously support "green politics" and I do not oppose the clearly redundant but correct "social liberalism", I strongly oppose "pro-Europeanism" as it is policy, not an ideology per se. --Checco (talk) 20:48, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia should value sources. At least German and English sources do not describe SPD as centrist, but GREENs is centrist. Mureungdowon (talk) 22:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary to emphasize only the sources of a particular country. There are left-wing sources, so I'm going to write off at least an internal faction. And the original description is center-left. Lazt9312 (talk) 04:12, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Hardline strong opposition. SPD is also described as "left-wing" by reliable sources, but does not refer to the political position of Wikipedia and SPD articles as "centre-left to left-wing". SPD is NOT described as "centrist". But GREENs are absolutely "centrist". Mureungdowon (talk) 05:40, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

If the political position of the GREENs article is not maintained, I will change the political position of the SPD article from "centre-left" to "centre-left to left-wing". Mureungdowon (talk) 05:43, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I have no objection to the fact that the Social Democratic Party has historically been leftist, but the current SPD is hardly leftist. Some media say that the SPD is dominated by centrists. https://www.ft.com/content/7765e2da-7199-432a-ab18-234594a8768e Lazt9312 (talk) 06:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I have no objection to the fact that the Social Democratic Party has historically been leftist, but the current SPD is hardly leftist. Some media say that the SPD is dominated by centrists. https://www.ft.com/content/7765e2da-7199-432a-ab18-234594a8768e Lazt9312 (talk) 06:51, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The party has historically been positioned on the 'left wing' of the political spectrum and is still often viewed as a left wing party.

But now the realist faction has taken control of the party and is also referred to as centrist in the same politics, gaining support from centrist voters. Lazt9312 (talk) 07:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

What would you like to write like this? Lazt9312 (talk) 07:20, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

It is relatively meaningful for these sources to refer to the SPD as centrist. The sources you have presented have only described the faction within the party as centrist, not the party itself as centrist. But the GREENs are considered centrist in themselves. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:00, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

you're right. However, the party is also considered left-wing. In fact, that's why the leftist was written as an internal faction, but if you write as a simple center leftist, can you suggest an opinion on how to put a footnote on it? Lazt9312 (talk) 14:47, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The SPD is still described as a "left-wing" party. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/10/germanys-left-wing-spd-leading-voter-polls-is-ready-for-power.html The SPD itself is not described as centrist. The GREENs are described as centrist in the party itself. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Only a minority of sources describe the Greens as "centrist". They are mostly described as "left-wing" and, more recently, "centre-left". I believe "centre-left" is a good compromise for the article's infobox. What I surely oppose is any option under the "xxxxx to xxxxx" format. --Checco (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Lazt9312 is influenced by Korean wiki.  I don't think your opinion is a compromise. I have been opposed to simply writing GREENS as "centre-left".What I can agree with is simply to write "centre". Otherwise, I think there are times when the format "xxxx to xxxx" is necessary. GREENS or FDP has multiple sources describing it as centrist, but SPD or CDU does not. This difference must thrive in a political position. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:34, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The important thing is to not place WP:UNDUE on journalistic sources which may not have been written by individuals entirely familiar with the topic of reporting. I still stand with listing “Centre-left” alone in the Infobox, as it is the most-referenced, and gives the most accurate description of the Greens’ place on Germany’s political spectrum.-- Autospark (talk) 22:22, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Then, it would be better to simply write it as a center leftist and listen to the opinion of Mureungdowon on how to add a footnote. (In the body of the article above, it is rather stated that it is a center-left political party, not a leftist one. / I do not trust Korean wikis such as Namu Wiki because most of them do not have sources.) Lazt9312 (talk) 02:59, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

im against calling SPD leftist, Grüne on the other hand is broadly left-wing to centrist depending on the branch. Even though the leadership leans to the centre they're still centre-left Braganza (talk) 20:51, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

There is also a centre-right in favour of green conservatism within the GREENs. There are few conservative politicians in the SPD. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:23, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

it's not truly centre-right the Teal independents are a better comparison Braganza (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Then, it is also favorable to the idea of ​​writing simply as a big tent. Lazt9312 (talk) 13:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

no, there is no centre-right part in Grüne Braganza (talk) 09:41, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, why don't you mark 'progressive' in your ideology? It is referred to as a progressive party in several sources. Lazt9312 (talk) 13:37, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion is becoming unnecessarily long. We should acknowledge that there is a consensus on having "centre-left" as the party's political position, as well as retaining "green politics" and, albeit redundantly, "social liberalism" as ideologies in the infobox ("progressivism" would be even more redundant). --Checco (talk) 14:24, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

GREENS and FDP's supporters are centrist.

Mureungdowon (talk) 14:44, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

It does not follow that the parties are themselves "centrist" purely because they seek centrist voters as per a reference from a journalistic source.--Autospark (talk) 18:00, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

That GREENS and FDP are centrist, I have given the sources in those articles. I am stating that the job GREENs are clearly centrist not only the party but also its supporters. CDU or SPD is not described as centrist by the party itself, and its supporters are usually described as right-wing or left-wing. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

yes you are right However, left-wing sources exist. Progressivism does not have to be written down, but the political position should be written as simple center left. Lazt9312 (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

SPD is not described as centrist. The GREENs' political position is therefore "Centre to centre-left". Mureungdowon (talk) 14:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

If there is no other evidence, I will insist on maintaining the original description, which is a simple centre-left description that has been maintained for more than a month. Lazt9312 (talk) 13:42, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Then I will change the SPD's political position to "Centre-left to left-wing". Are there any German or English sources that GREENS are never centrist? On the other hand, there are many sources that GREENs are absolutely centrist. Mureungdowon (talk) 14:02, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I object to the SPD's position being changed on its article; "centre-left" is the best and most accurate broad description of the party, as it is also with the Greens.--Autospark (talk) 15:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

As I have argued at Talk:Free Democratic Party (Germany), in a party system one ore more parties could share the same political position or, even (but less so), the same political ideology. There are different ways of being centre-left or, by the way, any political position. Both the SPD and the Greens are centre-left parties, albeit in different ways. One some issues, the SPD are to the left of the Greens, while on others it is the Greens who are to the left of the SPD. The same happens to the CDU and the FDP, Germany's main centre-right parties. What really differentiate the SPD and Greens is their political ideology. The SPD is a social-democratic party, while the Greens' ideology is green politics. Same for the CDU and the FDP, (liberal-)conservative and liberal respectively. Generally speaking, ideologies are more distinctive that positions when describing political parties. Thus, I am glad that we all agree on the obvious reality that Greens' main ideology is "green politics" (as I have argued many times, "social liberalism" is redundant as green parties are usually socially liberal, but it is formally correct). The political position is secondary, but to describe the Greens as centre-left should not be controversial—at all. --Checco (talk) 21:14, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I believe that when dividing political positions, 'traditional' social democratic parties and 'largest' right-wing opposition parties should be described as "centre-left" and "centre-right". A casting-board party that does not belong to it must include "centre to" if its political position is center-left or center-right. Wikipedia, in particular, is nothing more important than its source: The SPD is never described as a centrist. SPD is not described as centrist. GREENs is described as a centrist. I have not denied that GREENS are centre-left. But the reason I was skeptical of the view that GREENs are "centre-left" is because I fear that "centre to" will be removed from the political position. GREENS is absolutely "centre to centre-left". Mureungdowon (talk) 21:50, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Since traditional social democratic parties and the largest right-wing opposition prefer casting-board parties to form a coalition, casting-board parties tend to lean toward centrist positions. SPD and CDU also prefer GREENs/FDP to each other. In particular, it is not difficult to find data that the voters of the GREENS and FDP are actually quite the same, and that they reject the left-wing politics of the SPD and the right-wing politics of the CDU. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:59, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

I have to admit that I have never heard of the term "casting board party" before. Your conclusion is based on flawed reasoning – there is no reason why the SPD and Greens can't both be centre-left, and the CDU/CSU and FDP both be centre-right, within the same national political system. Also, the voter base of a party, or its target voter demographics, don't determine the categorisation of the political position of a party.--Autospark (talk) 16:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree with User:Autospark. By the way, we cannot discuss forever. It seems to me that the only consensual position is "centre-left", while "centre to centre-left" is at best redundant—please note that "centre-left" contains "centre" and is specifically what the Greens are: half-way from "centre" and "left-wing". --Checco (talk) 20:40, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

SPD is not considered centrist. In addition, GREENs are considered the most centrist in Germany. German voters also consider GREENs more centrist than the FDP. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:47, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The SPD is surely centre-left and no-one wrote anyting different. However, that the Greens are "the most centrist [political party] in Germany" and that "German voters also consider [the] Greens more centrist that the FDP" is your own opinion, bordering original research. By the way, the Greens are definitely to the left of the FDP, as the FDP is centre-right and the Greens are centre-left. --Checco (talk) 20:51, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Of course, GREENs are more culturally progressive than SPD, But German politics is not American politics. In German politics, the FDP and GREENS are liberal to social-liberal parties and should be considered centrist. Although not a source for voters, there are sources that GREENs describe as centrist, unlike the conservative right and the free market right. In almost all sources, FDP is not mentioned as more centrist than GREENs. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:59, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

FDP is not that progressive, they were willing to sacrifice socially liberal policies for the CDU and they sometimes silently agreed with AfD (like during covid or migration crisis) Braganza (talk) 22:30, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

To be sure, GREENS and FDP can easily find sources described as centrist. On the other hand, neither the SPD nor the CDU can find a source that is described as centrist. Wikipedia should be based on sources. Mureungdowon (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

im not against labeling FDP as centrist but im against labeling Grüne so Braganza (talk) 06:13, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

That is to consider an overly global political position. In Germany, GREENs are rather centrist than free-market right (FDP) or conservative right (CDU). The FDP is not often referred to as a radical centrist, but the GREENs are referred to much more as a radical centrist. And both parties are centrist. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:17, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

what do you mean with radical centrist? Braganza (talk) 10:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

See radical centrism#Germany. Of course, not all politicians in GREENs are described as radical centrist, but the term "radical centrist" is generally used to describe GREENs politicians rather than FDP politicians. GREENs are more centrist than the FDP. FDP is more centrist than GREENs by global standards, but GREENs are more centrist than FDP by German political standards. I believe that global standards should not be applied in German politics. Mureungdowon (talk) 10:30, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Using another Wikipedia article as a source is WP:NOTSOURCE, and is not grounds for a good argument. You're also stating your own opinions as fact, and at best replying upon WP:SYNTH. Also, I agree with Braganza, that the FDP is not exactly "progressive" on many issues. It definitely leans right, even if not being as conservative as the CDU/CSU.--Autospark (talk) 15:57, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Let me ask you the other way around. Is there any source that CDU or SPD are centrist? The FDP and GREENS are clearly centrist. Wikipedia should value sources. I cannot agree that FDP is "centre-right" just like CDU. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

tbf both parties (especially CDU) call themselves "the centre" Braganza (talk) 06:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The party's views are irrelevant to its actual political position. FDP and GREENs voters have many points of contact. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Braganza centre-right parties in Germany describe themselves as centre ("mitte") rather than right ("rechts") to avoid connotations of being right-wing, based on various historical reasons. Mureungdowon, for the last time, a political party's target voters aren't the party themselves.--Autospark (talk) 14:17, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

i know i am german myself Braganza (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

If the political position is fixed according to ideology, there is no point in writing down the political position. Among the multi-party democracies, there are many countries where the two major political party are divided into social democratic party and conservative opponent. The third party always tries to differentiate itself from the two big parties in a political position. More left-leaning/right-leaning or more centrist. (If it appears to the electorate that it is in the same political position as two major parties, it is less attractive as a third party.) Mureungdowon (talk) 21:17, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

this ignores major events like fridays for future, some CDU scandals & forest fires Braganza (talk) 08:01, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

GREENs were at odds with Greta Thunberg over coal. As Thunberry says, GREENs are relatively tolerant of coal consumption, obsessing over the disposal of nuclear power plants, which are less environmentally destructive. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:27, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

this does not matter though Braganza (talk) 08:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I actually agree that the "political position" is often pointless because the left-right spectrum can vary a lot in different contexts. This said, as long as "political position" stays, it shoudl be used correctly. In this case, per sources and consensus, the Greens' political position is "centre-left". As User:Autospark argued somewhere else, tautological descriptions such as "centre to centre-left" are utterly nonsensical constructions. --Checco (talk) 07:40, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me that the outcome of this discussion is that "green politics" is OK, "social liberalism" is OK (while redundant) and "centre-left" is the most correct, accurate and common description of the party's political position. Thus, I would leave both "green politics" and "social liberalism" in the "ideology" parameter of the infobox, while the "political position" should be only "centre-left". The opposition of only user should not prevent a consensus to be implemented. --Checco (talk) 22:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

i fully agree Braganza (talk) 22:33, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I am going to implement our new consensus. --Checco (talk) 18:44, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Mureungdowon: This talk page exists for a reason. You've added "centrism" back to the infobox despite your personal opinion being in the minority. Checco implemented the consensus, which I agree with, so completely ignoring it now and comparing Alliance 90/The Greens position to FDP's position is not alright even if you're trying to override this consensus because there is an ongoing RfC on FDP's talk page, which you are aware of. If you want to override this consensus in a legitimate way, start a new discussion. Vacant0 (talk) 13:22, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I believe that the debate over the political position of this article should be decided by the votes of the users. Mureungdowon (talk) 13:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The GREENs are much more centrist than the FDP, and that is evidenced by the sources I have presented.With the "Centre" not removed from the FDP's political position, it is unfair to remove it only from the GREENs article Mureungdowon (talk) 13:58, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

In the talk page of the FDP article, there are other users who argued that the political position of the FDP is 'centre to centre-right'. Most of them aren't on this article talk page yet. Mureungdowon (talk) 13:57, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

It doesn’t matter what it says on the article about the FDP; separate articles are separate articles. And the consensus is for this article to only list “centre-left” in the Infobox.-- Autospark (talk) 21:24, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the two are separate articles. See List of political parties in Germany#Current parties. The political position of the German political party articles must remain consistent. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:32, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Alliance 90/The Greens and Free Democratic Party are separate articles and your argument clearly falls under WP:OTHERCONTENT. As I've said, there is an ongoing RfC on FDP's talk page and an outcome hasn't been yet formed there. So what's currently (and in the future) on that article does not mean that it should be reflected here too. This discussion has been ongoing since January and there is now a consensus on what should be listed in the position parameter. Vacant0 (talk) 22:00, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

The political positions in the List of political parties in Germany#Current parties article are written as they are in the articles of German political parties. Then we should refer to FDP as "Centre to centre-left" and GREENs as "Centre-left" in the List of political parties in Germany#Current parties article. But this is clearly absolutely wrong. The GREENs should absolutely be described as centrist rather than FDP. Mureungdowon (talk) 22:48, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I am well aware that FDP and GREENs are individual articles, but nevertheless, I don't think GREENs should be described as being less centrist than FDP. It is based too much on international political standards, creating a false perception of German politics. The GREENs are closer to being the most radical centrist of Germany's major political parties. I believe that international political standards should not be prioritized over German political standards in German political articles. Mureungdowon (talk) 01:01, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

they aren't Braganza (talk) 07:00, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

That is merely your own opinion, backed by by WP:SYNTH type conclusions. No one with an understanding of German politics would categorise Die Grünen as some kind of pure centrist party, even if their current leadership is from the moderate wing of the party.-- Autospark (talk) 09:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

these list of parties articles are often not really accurate/copy and pastes of their respective article Braganza (talk) 06:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

That's your interpretation and that is alright, but it is important to respect the consensus, in this case to list "centre-left". If you want to overturn it, start a new discussion. Vacant0 (talk) 19:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia should be based on sources. Unlike SPD, GREENs are described as centrist in several sources. Mureungdowon (talk) 20:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Again, our consensus here is to have only "Centre-left" in the infobox. I will fix that. --Checco (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

@Checco: Mureungdowon still claims that there is no consensus. Vacant0 (talk) 21:20, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I’ll add that it is the consensus to have merely “centre-left” in the Ideology field, and hope that edit warring can be avoided.-- Autospark (talk) 08:47, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not the only editor who doesn't agree that Greens are "centre-left". And I was against "centre-left" in Talk page. This cannot be seen as a 'consensus'. Mureungdowon (talk) 08:51, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

That's correct, you and Lazt9312 are only opposed to this. You are clearly outnumbered by those who only favour "centre-left" in the infobox. Vacant0 (talk) 10:15, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Maxine McKeown is on the same page as me. Mureungdowon (talk) 12:14, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

We must put priority on sources. Mureungdowon (talk) 12:15, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no doubt that there are sources stating that the Greens are centrist and, by the way, most of those sources state that the party is also centre-left or the most centrist of German centre-left parties. Thus, the Greens are primarily centre-left! No-one is proposing to remove anything from the "ideology" section, but a clear majority of users want to have a simplified "ideology" parameter in the infobox, mentioning only "centre-left". --Checco (talk) 14:12, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

The SPD is not described as a centrist, it is described as a left-wing. Therefore, it should be premised that the SPD article political position should be changed. Mureungdowon (talk) 16:02, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

This is not the article about the SPD. Like the SPD, the Greens are a centre-left party, containing centrists and left-wingers and individuals and factions in between. There is no ‘rule’ that two parties operating within the same nation can’t occupy the same position on the political spectrum.-- Autospark (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Centrist (or radical-centrist) is the mainstream in Greens. There are some social democrats, but there are centre-right green conservatives among them. Mureungdowon (talk) 21:59, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

User:Autospark is perfectly right. Please let me add that also the SPD also contains some conservative (or, better, more conservative figures), but it is broadly a centr-left, social-democratic party. Similarly, the Greens are broadly a centre-left, green party. It might be the most centrist of Germany's centre-left parties, but still it is a centre-left party. --Checco (talk) 06:38, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The Greens may not have clearly identified itself as centre-left but it has a fiscal policy that is clearly to the left of the SPD’s, uses left-wing iconography, like the Antifa flag, and voices its support for left-wing parties in other countries. It’s wrong to describe the Greens as centrist while the SPD, which is also erroneously described as centrist by several sources, and the FDP, which self-identifies as centrist, are described as solely centre-left and centre-right respectively. Kretschmann is clearly a maverick. Smartypants2006 (talk) 09:41, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

In terms of mechanical statistics alone, the Democratic Party of America in 2019 is closer to a social democratic political party than to a social liberal political party in Europe. # It is an American idea to divide the left from the right by fiscal policy. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:23, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Greens' policies alone should not be too entrenched in the mechanical political spectrum. What is important is that Greens are identified as radical centrist as an alternative to CDU and SPD. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:23, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Syriza is an alternative to PASOK and ND, do you think they should be described as radical centrist too? Smartypants2006 (talk) 11:33, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Syriza does not portray himself as a more centrist party than PASOK. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:58, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Syriza is criticized by the ND as radical. On the other hand, Greens are recognized by the CDU as a moderate partner political party. Mureungdowon (talk) 11:59, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

The Greens currently do not portray themselves as a more centrist party than SPD. The CDU also recognizes the SPD as a moderate partnerSmartypants2006 (talk) 12:06, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Germany's Greens are moderate. But Syriza is a relatively moderate, not a general moderate, and very left-wing. Mureungdowon (talk) 13:11, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

This debate has been unnecessarily long. There are sources classifying the Greens as more centrist than the SPD and others classifying the SPD as more centrist than the Greens. One thing is sure, according to sources and our consensus, the Greens are mainly a centre-left party. Thus, they should be described that way in the infobox. By the way, "centre-left" includes "centre"! --Checco (talk) 20:00, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Greens do not have the same rooted socialist tradition as the SPD. The SPD has never been described as a centrist directly in the media. Mureungdowon (talk) 23:02, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

The SPD certainly has in the past, during the Schröder chancellorship and later; the Greens' roots is a a party to well the left of the SPD.-- Autospark (talk) 15:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

However, not only me, but also among other editors, many see Greens' political position as a centrist. I see Greens as an obvious centrist, but let me add a footnote as a compromise. Once the article's infobox political position is kept as "centre-left", instead of adding footnotes. Mureungdowon (talk) 22:12, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The footnote is not a reasonable compromise. There is an entire section explaining at length the party's ideology and positionment. Moreover, it is not true that many editors consider the Greens as centrist. Only a minority of sources state that. In most cases, those sources state that the Greens are more centrist that the SPD, not that they are centrist per se. --Checco (talk) 20:26, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

A footnote is a compromise. I still disagree with "Centre-left". Mureungdowon (talk) 20:35, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

The footnote is misleading, and should be removed from the Infobox.-- Autospark (talk) 07:49, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

A footnote is a compromise. Never, except for footnotes. To simply write down the political position within Infobox as "Centre-left", footnotes should never be removed. Rather, I am in the position that footnotes are unnecessary and that "Centre" must be in the political position of infobox. Mureungdowon (talk) 07:52, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

The footnote was never agreed upon and I'm also opposed to it. Vacant0 (talk) 10:45, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Once again, "centre-left" is opposed by only one user and the footnote cannot be a compromise, as it is similarly proposed only by one user. I am going to remove it, as it was added against consensus. --Checco (talk) 19:24, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

References

References

Political position (again)

I by no means wish to restart discussions that have already achieved consensus. However, after having read over the previous discussion on this topic, I find some of the reasoning not have "centre" included as a political position in the infobox kind of ridiculous.

It doesn't matter what you personally believe. It doesn't matter what position other German political parties have listed in their infobox. It doesn't matter that "centre-left" already contains the word "centre". It doesn't matter what ideologies 'you' personally think classify a party as centre or centre-left.

All that matters is what independent, reliable sources say. And, as noted in the article itself, there are a good amount of sources that explicitly classify the Greens as "centrist". If it's notable and reliable enough to be documented in the article itself, there is absolutely no reason why it should not be included in the infobox (even if only as a footnote). The reasoning that many use to reject this reeks of WP:OR and WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

If the article's main body itself acknowledges that "there are sources describing the party as centrist" and that "some suggest the Greens were filling a gap in the political centre", this should be reflected in the infobox. Loytra (talk) 11:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I would also be in favour of this, or at least opening up this dialogue again. Calling placing B90/Grüne in the same political position as the SPD is either disingenuous or misleading, I propose the label "Centre to centre-left". Thoughts? GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 02:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

“Centre to centre-left” is tautological, and absolutely should not be listed. Also, there is no rule in political science (or en.wiki) that dictates that no two parties in the same nation can be on the same part of the political spectrum! There is zero contradiction with SPD and Grünen both being described “centre-left”, certainly not given that’s what the sources state.— Autospark (talk) 13:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

"Centre to centre-left" isn't considered a tautology in dozens of wikipedia articles, such examples come to mind as Liberal Party (Canada), Freedom Movement (Slovenia), and Liberal Democrats (UK). I'm not implying that two parties in the same country can't be given the same descriptor of their left-right position, all I mean to suggest is that it's inaccurate to say that B90/Grüne is as left-wing as SPD since it's more of a liberal party and thus closer to the centre, and that it could be confusing to imply that Grüne and SPD share the exact same political position. And as @Loytra said, several sources specifically use the term "centrist" to describe them. Hence why I believe it's best to use "Centre to centre-left" as a descriptor to show that some sources describe it as a centrist party while others describe it as slightly left of centre, like with the other examples I listed above. GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 13:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't care what some other, less well written, en.wiki articles describe. It's not "confusing" to list two parties in the same nation as being on the same part of the political spectrum, and many countries have multiple centre-left and centre-right parties (Germany, Italy, for example, certainly the UK as well, among others). Describing Die Grünen as "more of a liberal party and thus closer to the centre" is somewhat of a push too, WP:SYNTH, considering most of its existence its been to the left of the SPD. I don't see the need to place WP:UNDUE on scant (journalistic) sources claiming that Die Grünen is centrist, and more than I would for sources describing the SPD as centrist (e.g. example1 example2 [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Bvm0EAAAQBAJ&pg=PA70 example3).-- Autospark (talk) 14:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

It's irrelevant what your opinion on other articles is, it simply shows that there is more than enough precedent for the label being used across Wikipedia, and again, I'm not saying that two parties being in the same political position is confusing, just that it could potentially confuse people to see a centre-left social democratic party placed in the same exact position as a green social liberal party when they clearly have different economic goals in mind. A quick search on Google Scholar yields several sources source1 source2 source3 describing B90's centreward shift over the last several decades. I have no problem with including a "Historical, now Minority:" section indicating the party's left-wing socialist roots, but it seems clear to me that B90 is not as left-wing as SPD is. So I assert that specifying that some sources consider it to be centrist and some consider it to be centre-left is not tautological and is a more accurate depiction of the party than simply "centre-left" as a blanket descriptor. GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 14:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, there’s no rule on en.wiki or in political science that states that no two parties in the same country can’t share the same description on the left/right political spectrum. A socdem party and a green party are described differently using the “Ideology” field in the Infobox and (much more importantly), the text in the article body, and therefore no one is claiming that social democratic parties and green parties are ideologically identical for typically both being placed centre-left on the political spectrum.— Autospark (talk) 15:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think @GlowstoneUnknown is disagreeing with you that two parties can have the same political position - but that’s simply not the case here. If it were the case then you would be absolutely right, but there are a significant number of sources that label the Greens as centrist. No one in their right mind would call the SPD centrist. There is just factually a difference and it must be reflected in the article. DankAsh27 (talk) 22:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly my point, thank you, if the "centre to centre-left" label is still outright rejected, then I'd propose describing the party as "centre" instead, but my firm opinion is that they definitely should be labelled as between centre (like for instance Austria's NEOS) and centre-left (like the SPD), leaving a position section like the parties I listed above. GlowstoneUnknown (talk) 04:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I find it utterly bizarre that the claim that the Greens are “pure centrist” keeps on re-emerging. I have no idea where people get this notion. The SPD and CDU are considered “volkspartei”, being considered the more centrist, broad appeal parties, while the Greens are a more narrow-appeal party considered to the left of the SPD. Yes the Germans Greens are more moderate and centre-left compared to the average Green Party in an anglophone country, but that does not make them “pure centrist”. If anything “centre-left to left” would be more accurate, but that would also be as redundant/tautological and honestly misleading as “centre to centre-left”.— Autospark (talk) 13:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

But we’re not making the claim that the Greens are “pure centrist”. You are also factually incorrect that no credible sources label the Greens as centrist - but then also make the claim that the SPD can be considered centrist and provide no sources? Your tautology argument is also, again, simply misguided and circular. The political spectrum is just that: a spectrum. A centre to centre-left party is different from a centre party which is different from a centre-left party. We’re not talking about comparisons with anglophone green parties. We’re not talking about whether the Greens are considered a Volkspartei. We’re not talking about the appeal of different parties and their bases. We’re talking about the position of the Greens on the political spectrum. It’s just a fact that there are sources out there that label the Greens as centrist [here and a bunch of other spots] as well as centre-left and that it’s a commonly held view and it’s our job to reflect that in the article. DankAsh27 (talk) 13:48, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not that two parties in the same country can't share the same political position, it's that the Greens are variously described in reliable sources as both centrist and centre-left, and the political position in the infobox should reflect this. Watch Atlas791 (talk) 11:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

“Centre-left” already contains the descriptive “centre”, doesn’t it?— Autospark (talk) 13:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

It contains the word centre, but 'centre' and 'centre-left' are not the same. As I have said, the Greens have been described as both and the infobox should reflect this. Furthermore, the Greens are also Volkspartei

Watch Atlas791 (talk) 05:25, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, that’s one source, and “volkspartei” and “centrist” are not synonyms, the former meaning “people’s party”. It means a broad-appeal party, or at least a party attempting that sort of image. So which sources describe the Greens as “pure centrist”,?— Autospark (talk) 08:31, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I know what volkspartei means. After carefully looking through the sources on Google Scholar and Google's news search tab, I think I am coming around to your view. There are a few sources that describe the Greens as centrist e.g [1] and [2] but as you have previously said they tend to be journalistic. Sources describing the Greens tend to not to use words like centrist, centre left or left wing and tend to stick to terms like environmentalist c.f Deutsche Welle however those that do especially the more academic sources, tend to describe the party as centre-left more often than they do centrist. Writing the Greens as centrist would probably be WP:UNDUE so I've changed my mind, centre-left is a good descriptor. Watch Atlas791 (talk) 05:58, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

No, describing the party as centre-left would not be correct. There are also several analytical academic articles that describe him as a centrist [3][4][5]. The party's position must be changed to "center to center-left", according to the references. Hidolo (talk) 02:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Please direct us to any analytical passages in those text bookss which explicitly describe Die Grünen as solely a centrist party, as you seem to have linked to the overview pages for those books. Anyway, this is about what to list in the Infobox, and no-one is disputing what other sources might’ve described. I find it depressing that all this time is wasted on arguing about the content of Infoboxes rather than being spent writing actual articles.-- Autospark (talk) 14:40, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah no, you're wrong bro 199.107.16.126 (talk) 14:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

“Centre-left” already contains the descriptive “centre”, doesn’t it?" is the dumbest thing I've ever read about politics. 199.107.16.126 (talk) 14:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That is wrong on all occasions 2021 the green and the FDP advocated for an privatization of the deutsche Bahn which the SPD rejected same with fiscal policies, yes the SPD and the GREENS want more taxes but not for the same things and not in the same way, while the greens are more open towards free market thinking with their policies, the SPD is a bit more closed and goes more into an distribution of wealth, the greens take a more „anti-distribution“ with example: tax payed healthcare, they still want an more open market for that while the SPD dosnt and the greens are against the banking and finance policy of the SPD 84.174.215.117 (talk) 08:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I totally agree with everything that User:Autospark wrote. Moreover, I think that political positions tend to be very deceptive and I would remove them altogether from infoboxes. Luckily, we have a better indicator: ideology! The Greens' ideology is clearly green politics, while the SPD's is social democracy. This said, both parties are quintessentially centre-left. Germany has very few main parties, but there are countries where there are competing parties sharing not only the political position, but even the ideology: really, I don not understand what is the issue. --Checco (talk) 06:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, I agree with User:Autospark: arguing on infoboxes is a waste of time. Infoboxes should only be summaries of article bodies! --Checco (talk) 06:28, 16 May 2024 (UTC)