Talk:Reddiar

Groupism i.e., Caste origin

The origin of groupism i.e., caste seems to have started with people trying to refer to themselves as one group. There was no divisions and sub divisions until different people started competing for the same resources and had to organize themselves into groups to improve their chances in competing.

Lathead 12:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This article mistakes all reddiars in Tamilnadu are konda reddys. In fact, Diwan Bahadur Agaram Subbarayalu Reddiar[1] ( Telugu: అగరం సుబ్బరాయలు రెడ్డియార్, Tamil: அகரம் சுப்பராயலு ரெட்டியார்) (b. 15 October 1855 – d. November 1921) was a landlord, Justice Party leader and Chief Minister or Premier of Madras Presidency from 17 December 1920 to 11 July 1921.[2] So, there needs to be a suitable correction. There are many kinds of reddiars in Tamilnadu, historically. And most are classified as Forward castes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.132.204.177 (talk) 23:50, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

This editorial is so vague confusing not able to understand by average readers on what the editor have to change.The editorial is not in encyclopedic style, unsourced and confusing.--Universalrahu (talk) 21:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Subdivision origin

Another reason for groupism came from the profession followed by the differnt groups. As people changed professions, they also had to change names to reflect those professions. However they needed to differentiate themselves from people who were already using those professional names. So as people took up farming they had to call themselves Vellala. However since other groups were using Vellala as title, different groups with additional names were created. Thus were created the various groups of Vellala.

Lathead 9:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Deletion record

This page was voted on for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Reddiar. The consensus was to keep it. dbenbenn | talk 01:34, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Reddiar and Reddy same?

Someone please clarify to me if Reddy and Reddiar are same clan of people --Vyzasatya 20:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Reddiar and Reddy are originally from the same caste, The differences in the names have come up during the centuries mainly because of the way they were pronounced in Tamil and Telugu and also had to do with the regional slag.If you happen to visit the Telugu University in Hyderabad go to the library and you will a old book written in old telugu script, which you may not be able to read every word (escpecially the old telugu numbers and the book is in blue cover titled something like Telugu "bahsha kula varnalu" (Meaning: languages & various castes) and the author referees about this in the paragraph about Reddy's. There is also a paragraph which talks about the penukonda king (or some family member of the royalty) who helped construct the Thirupathi temple, When the Srirangapatnam was captured by British the British appointed the vadoyrs for mysore/madras presidency and some reddiar who he referees as some heir of penukonda dynasty as a appointee for the anathapur/penukonda region.

unknown author did not sign

It may be but they dont intermarry in Tamil nadu, you can see very clearly in Brides or Bridegrooms wanted adds calling out for Tamil speaking Reddiar groom or bride wanted. In Tamil diaspora it is a title used by Tamil people but freely intermarry amongst every one else and even the people who have the tile do not know that the title is of Telugu origin unless they research the topic. But by then all so called Telugu norms have become part of the local Tamil norms.

RaveenS 13:47, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Konda Reddis of Tirunelveli District

KONDA REDDIS OF TIRUNELVELI DISTRICT

INTRODUCTION: The contents of this page is purely on the basis of British Period Government records, Historical Books, Anthropological Books, Very old Sale deeds, Settlement Registers(1876), Re-Settlement Registers(1920), various Reports of District Collector, RDO, Tahsildars etc. In Tamil Nadu the Konda Reddis are facing so many problems from Revenue Department as well as from the Employers. Therefore, this Web site will give a clear picture about Konda Reddis Origin, Migration and Settlement. Moreover, I hope this Web Site will help the True Konda Reddis to get their legitimate constitutional rights.

ORIGIN: The Origin of Konda Reddis of Tamil Nadu is East, West Godavari District, Khamman District and Vizagapatnam District of Andhra Pradesh. According to Encyclopedia of Indian Tribes “The Konda Reddis are Princely Tribes – ruled sizable areas in Srikakulam and Godavari District. In West Godavari District the Konda Reddis who styled themselves as Racha Reddis, reigned over the territory covering the present Taluks of Kovvur, Polavaram and Chintalapudi in West Godavari District. The area in fact is called Reddi Seema after the Konda Reddi rulers.”

MIGRATION: After the fall of the Vijayanagar Empire and “Konda Veedu” many Konda Reddis fled into the nearby States Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Kerala etc.

SETTLEMENTS: The Konda Reddis of Tirunelveli District, mostly the origin of Kovvur, Polavaram, Kondapilly (Konda Pally), Gundala, Nelli, Maddhi Veedu etc. of Andhra Pradesh. Though the Konda Reddy Tribes settled in many Villages in Tirunelveli District, their presence is very much felt in Seelathikulam, Parameswarapuram, Samugarengapuram, Chidambarapuram etc. This can be proved from the Settlement Register (1876), Re-Settlement Register (1920), Sale Deeds etc. The Konda Reddis suffixed the Origin Village name with their name. Such names are given below: 01. Kovvur Kumarasamy Reddiar 02. Nelli Konda Reddiar 03. Kovvur Subba Reddiar 04. Gundala Pedda Reddiar 05. Konda Pilli Chinnasamy Reddiar 06. Kovvur Krishnasamy Reddiar 07. Maddhi Veedu Subba Reddiar 08. Gundala Gopala Reddiar

OCCUPATION: When the Konda Reddi tribes migrated from Andhra Pradesh, first they settled in Madurai District. When the Pandya King not favoured the Tribes, they moved to southwards. At that time the Southern parts were overrun with Jungle and there was no much inhabitants, the Konda Reddis settled in Tirunelveli District. After settlement, they cleared the jungles and engaged in Agriculture and allied activities. Settled cultivation is mainly practiced by the Konda Reddis of Tirunelveli District. Due to poor rainfall, some Konda Reddis migrated to Ceylon (Srilanka) and nearby Kerala State.

LANGUAGE: The mother tongue of Konda Reddis is Telugu. But nowadays they speak Tamil also in their homes.

TITLE: The Konda Reddys used to suffix the Title or surname Reddiar, Konda Reddiar and Reddy in earlier days, but now most of them do not use the Titles or Community surnames. In the Book of Edgar Thurston – Castes and Tribes of Southern India (1909) mentioned that “the Konda Reddis call themselves by various high sounding Titles, such as Pandava Reddis, Raja Reddis and Reddis of Solar Race (Surya Vamsa) and do not like the plain name of Konda Reddi”. In the Settlement Register (1876), Re-Settlement Register and in some Old Sale deeds and Voters list the following names are found to prove the above.

01. M.Konda Reddi : Mela Veedu Peria Konda Reddi 02. T.Konda Reddi : Therkku Veedu Konda Reddi 03. T.Konda Reddi : Thamarai Konda Reddi 04. K.Konda Reddi : Keela Veedu Konda Reddi 05. M.Konda Reddi : Mulai Veedu Konda Reddi 06. T.Konda Reddi : Theyilai Konda Reddi 07. R.Konda Reddi : Ramsamy Konda Reddi 08. N.Konda Reddi : Nambi Konda Reddi 09. S.Konda Reddi : Sinna Konda Reddi 10. V.Konda Reddi : Veeravagu Konda Reddi 11. S.R.Konda Reddi : Sinna Ramasamy Konda Reddi 12. S.T.R. Konda Reddi : Seelathikulam Therkku Veedu Ramasamy Konda Reddi 13. S.V.Konda Reddi : Seelathikulam Veera Konda Reddi 14. P.Konda Reddi : Pangula Konda Reddi 15. P.S. Konda Reddi : Pothedi Subbiah Konda Reddi 16. M.Konda Reddi : Muthusamy Konda Reddi 17. A.M.Konda Reddi : Asthar Muthusamy Konda Reddi 18. S.N.Konda Reddi : Seelathikulam Nambi Konda Reddi 19. N.Konda Reddi : Nelli Konda Reddi 20. M.Konda Redi : Machavar Konda Reddi 21. L.Konda Reddi : Lakshmana Konda Reddi 22. S.R.Konda Reddi : Seelathikulam Ramsamy Konda Reddi 23. M.R.Konda Reddi : Mula Veedu Ramasamy Konda Reddi 24. T.Konda Reddi : Thur Konda Reddi 25. M.Konda Reddi : Maddhi Veedu Konda Reddi

EXOGAMOUS UNITS/CLANS: Konda Reddis are divided into Clans. The Clan is permanent and his transference from one clan to another even in case of adoption, impossibility. The main function of Clan is the regulation of Marriage. In accordance with Telugu custom, this name is nowadays described as a “House Name” or Intiperu (Telugu Term). Some important clans of Konda Reddi Tribes of Tirunelveli District are given below:

01. Pothedivar 02. Pangulavar 03. Padavattivar(Descendant of Mela Veedu Peria Konda Reddi) 04. Uttrattivar (Descendant of Vadakku Veedu Konda Reddi) 05. Thatchattivar(Descendant of Therkku Veedu Konda Reddi) 06. Mula Veeddar(Descendant of Mula Veedu Konda Reddi) 07. Thurvattivar (Descendant of Keela Veedu Konda Reddi) 08. Machavar 09. Garvar 10. Gavadivar 11. Maddhittivar 12. Nellivar 13. Poladivar 14. Annadivar 15. Konda Pillivar 16. Batthattivar 17. Kondlavar 18. Chendlavar 19. Kotlavar 20. Menuruvar 21. Rajendrathar 22. Penuruvar 23. Kanabalavar 24. Ventlavar 25. Potlavar 26. Pogulavar 27. Poterivar 28. Kanugulavar 29. Buzarvar 30. Peeruvar 31. Chedlavar 32. Thurvar.

RELIGION AND WORSHIP: Konda Reddis Tribe of Tirunelveli District is all Hindus. They are very superstitious and practice all the rites of demonolatry like the low caste People and besmear their bodies with ashes. The Konda Reddis profess to be both Saivites and Vaishnavites. They worship Muthalamman, Parvathi Amman, Gangamman, Thenattamman and other Village Deities. During Temple Festivals Goats, Pigs, Chickens are offered to the Village Deity and feasts are arranged during Temple Festivals. In the Konda Reddi Villages each Clan has Separate Deities and the Clan Member performs Poojas and arranges Temple Festival. The Konda Reddis also worship ancestors including women who have died before their husbands. The Konda Reddis have the habits of Caste Hindus. Konda Reddis are not untouchables.

SOCIAL ORGANISATION: Konda Reddis have very good administration capacity and practice well defined democratic methods. The system is called Village Panchayat. Each and every Konda Reddi family is a member of the Village Panchayat. In Seelathikulam Village the “Mela Veedu Konda Reddi” family descendants are having the first right to perform poojas in Village Temple. This post is hereditary and belongs to the family that established the clan. Since his authority is mainly religious, he appropriates as the Chief Priest also. The Konda Reddis have a good communication network through a messenger designated by the Community itself. Any message of good or bad is communicated by him to others.

FOOD HABITS: The Konda Reddis of Tirunelveli District are Non-Vegetarians. They eat meat, which strict Vaishnavas in other places will not do. During Temple Festivals at the conclusion ceremony, the Konda Reddis cook meat and will present a portion to the priest and drink arrack. The Konda Reddis will not eat cooked food at the hands of a person of lower caste. Konda Reddi women will not cook during menstruation and after child birth. Nowadays, the Konda Reddi People dines with lower caste people.

PHYSICAL FEATURES: The Konda Reddis of Tirunelveli District look smart and active. In the Book “Tribes of South India” by J.F.KEARNS, Missionary of the Propagation Society, Tinnevelly(1881) narrates as follows – “The Women are finer than the men. They are tall presenting an average height of five feet nine inches. Though so tall, they are well formed; their carriage – indeed, that of all Hindu Women – is very graceful and would bear comparison with that of the most perfect modiste in Europe. No European moves with so much grace and elegance. Their faces are extremely intelligent; the nose is prominent, well formed and angular; the eyebrows well and gracefully arched; and the forehead rising gracefully rounds off over the temples, giving them quite an aristocratic look”

MARRIAGE: The forms of Marriage customs among the Reddis are similar to those obtaining ordinarily in the Telugu Country. If a proper marriage after negotiation is performed, a Brahmin Priest officiates and Tali is tied. Widow Remarriages and divorce are customarily approved practice. The Custom of marrying the deceased elder brother’s widow or sister of deceased wife is also an accepted practice among Konda Reddis. Payment of oli or Bride’s money is a practising custom. Property rights and houses are vested on the paternal side and bequeathed to male progeny only. The Konda Reddis are not debarred from inter-marrying with ordinary Reddis, they had the status of a socially superior class. In the earlier days Konda Reddis marriage was performed with feast for three days.

CURRENT STATUS: The Konda Reddis own land. Now, this Tribe has some Entrepreneurs, Job-holders, Engineers, Doctors, and Lawyers etc. Consequent to the controversy over the Constitutional Status of the Konda Reddis, their identity is under transition. Some sections have retained their identity as ‘Scheduled Tribe’ to get the Government concessions, others have not. Due to contact with the local people, the Konda Reddis changed their life style. They dress in the style of Non-Tribals.

CONCLUSION: The Konda Reddis of Tirunelveli District are having more than 100 vital documents to prove their Origin and Migrational history. After 1980 due to the controversy over the constitutional status of the Konda Reddis, most of the Konda Reddis not claimed any benefits from Government. If any Konda Reddi claimed, the concerned RDO is delaying/not issuing the Community Certificate. However, by a preliminary study over this tribe by an Anthropologist confirmed the Konda Reddis claim as ‘Scheduled Tribe’ is genuine one. Therefore, the Government should consider issuing community Certificates to the genuine Konda Reddy Tribes to avail at least ONE PERCENT RESERVATION provided by the Government.

(For any clarifications pl.email: scmreals@rediffmail.com)

How many Reddiar castes are there in Tamil Nadu?

This article only mentions about Reddy Ganjam.Are there any other Telugu castes using Reddiar title.I also suggest this article be merged with Reddy.

Raghavan2010 (talk) 13:34, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Dear UniversalRaghu:

Received your message that suggest the edits do not meet the wikipedia editorial standards. I respectfully disagree. Please explain why the article does not meet the editorial standards. Here is why the edits were made, and explicit support for the edits is already on the main page.

The entry on current status is accurate. The entry was extensively researched. Every entry was carefully considered, keeping in mind the current ground reality. And primary sources carefully considered before each revision was made. The primary sources in this entry deals with proving something which is described as list of exclusions. For example, both the central government and the Tamilnadu state government release lists of communities who are entitled to reservation. Or in other words, there is no state or central government list in existence which shows communities which are NOT entitled to reservation

Given this context, all revisions made on April 28, 2017 use the following order for primary sources (Please see the current wikipedia entry repoduced below for all sources:

(1) Sources which are produced by the central government or state government, which deal with the issue. There were two primary sources which meet this definition: (1)(a) parliamentary debates, where a Member of Parliament makes representations to the Indian Parliament. These debates are fact checked by the Rajya Sabha secretariat, any factually incorrect entries purged or corrected before publication. The primary reference which suggests Reddiars are a forward community currently is such a representation by a member of parliament in 2006. (1)(b) Madras High Court petition where one of the issues which needed to be addressed to arrive at the judgement, was "whether reddiars are forward community?" The High Court judgement is dispositive that Hindu Reddiars are forward community. Please note that in India all Christians and Muslims are generally considered forward communities and are not provided reservation. Although, there are exceptions to this rule. The Madras High Court uses Hindu Reddiar to make this legal distinction explicit. Any person who changes religion from hinduism to Christianity, will lose their backward status in most instances for the purposes of reservation as far the government of India is concerned. So the Madras High Court explicitly states Hindu Reddiars are forward community not entitled to reservation.

(2)Sources which are produced by reputed university publications, which deal with the issue. The sources which meet this definition include: (2)Books published by subject matter experts from a reputed university. I believe the books were edited by Indiana University press, Princeton University Press etc. (3) Sources which are produced by reputed news papers, which deal with the issue. The sources which meet this definition include: (3)(a) News papers such as the telegraph and others reporting on the status of reddiars and any relevant legal disputes. (4) Sources which are produced by other sources, which deal with the issue. Some of these sources include a sage publication book, which explicitly provides references of Reddiars and various disputes and how they are considered forward community members currently. This source although rated at four has explicit references of forward community reddiars. The relevant pages is page 88,. This reference in other pages shows Reddiars and their interaction with dalits which is particularly telling of why majority of Reddiars are considered forward community. However, these interactions may be disparaging and were not referenced and instead a neutral page, i.e., page 88 was used in the final entry. See pages 98, 99, 97, 20, 19, 96 and 16.

The intent of the article wasn't to malign any community but to produce an accurate account of the current reality. So the edits are factually consistent, while avoiding issues created by a few individuals. Please let me know why you feel the editorial standards are not met with more specificity.

In conclusion, the issue being addressed is what's the current status of Reddiars in India and in Tamilnadu. A majority of Reddiars in India and Tamilnadu are classified as forward community as of April 30, 2017. Exceptions to this general rule sub-sects such as Ganjam Reddy, Koda reddy who constitute a minority of the community. Also note that the entry has to use reliable sources to establish a Negative. So the ordered list provided above was used to prove the negative and meet wikipedia standards. Finally, the entry reflects ground reality, i.e. majority of the reddiars in India are forward caste, without disparaging one community, sub-sect or the other. And at the same time produce a good wikipedia entry which is accurate. That's the reason for the various considered edits on April 28, 2017. Each successive edit on April 28, 2017 was made only after the primary sources made "proving the negative" possible, i.e. that a community not listed in the central government and tamilnadu state government lists is for the most part a forward community. Therefore, I respectfully disagree the entry does not meet the wikipedia editorial standards or that corrections are appropriate.

Reproducing the current status of the wikipedia page:

References

Current status

In India, Reddiars are classified as Forward caste. In Tamilnadu, Reddiars are classified as Forward Caste by the British. For example, the first chief minister of Tamil Nadu was a Reddiar. Today, Reddiars are generally classified as Forward Caste in Tamilnadu. For example, a Member of Parliment in Rajya Sabha in 2006 distinguished between Reddiars who are generally classified as forward castes in Tamilnadu and Koda Reddys who are classified as Scheduled Tribes in Tamilnadu. Similarly, the Madras High Court in 2015 considered this distinction between Reddiars who are generally classified as forward castes and konda reddys who are classified as Scheduled Tribes as dispositive a writ petition in a reservation case in Tamilnadu. After Independence, some sub-castes among Reddiars in Tamilnadu such a Ganjam Reddys have been included in the Backward Class list by the state government. Some sub-castes like Ganjam Reddys from Tamilnadu have now sought classification as backwards caste in the central government list. Konda Reddys are classified as Scheduled Tribes. Reddiars are classified as Backward caste, in Kerala where they migrated to in early 1900. Some Reddiars in kerala are considered protected minorities, who need better educational access due to merchantile roots of Reddiars in Kerala and lack of significant land ownership. There is a separate section of Reddiars called Konda Reddy who were considered Shudras in British surveys, who follow tribal customs. Recently, Konda Reddys in Odissa have been pressing for inclusion in the Scheduled Tribes list.

Editor of the April 28, 2016 edits.

References