Talk:Crescent

old talk

Rather crude diagrams.
also, I think the radii of the circles are not the same; the "inside" one has

a larger radius - obviously! David Martland 22:46 Dec 10, 2002 (UTC)

Er, I would say that there are two crescents.. one that is a circle of the same size covering all but the edge of a circle, the other is a circle with a -SMALLER- circle taken out of it.

    _________
      \__    \____
         \__      \_
            \_      \_
              \       \
               \       \
                |       \
                |        |
                 |       |
                 |       |
                |        |
                |       /
               /       /
             _/      _/
          __/      _/
       __/    ____/
    __/______/

OK, the ASCII crescent is moved here and I drew a new image for the article (FEAR MY ART SKILLS! XP). --Lorenzarius 13:42 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

exploitation of symbol by Western clothing companies

Isn't the moon crescent being exploited by clothing companies? Really, I have seen several T-shirts with the symbol on them...

everything i have read with regards to the symbol of the crescent and the star is that originated in byzantium. the crescent was adopted as the symbol of the greek colony of byzantium after they were saved by the light of the moon from a sneak attack from philip of macedon (alexander the greats father) during the fourth centurt B.C. later, in the fourth century A.D. when constantine the great was rebuilding the city of byzantium as his new capital he added the star as a symbol of the virgin mary who was to be the guardian of the city. when the ottomans captured the city in 1453 they adopted the flag as a bringer of good luck and, from there, it has spread to many islamic coutries.

It is impossible to know if this story is legend or not. In any case, crescents have been used as symbols by an enormously diverse range of peoples, and there's no real way of knowing for certain where the Ottomans got it. It could be a pre-Islamic pagan symbol, a Byzantine symbol, a combination of these, who knows?

Well, the crescent as a symbol was also in use in the pre-Islamic Uygur-Turk kingdoms, e.g. usually artistic depictions portraying monarchs or religious dignitaries show a crescent whose both sharp ends point to the top. (Will try to find an example from the scource in my college library, think it was the 'Uygurica'...)

In ancient and contemporary non-Islamic Turkic and Lamaist Mongolian art crescents are to be found, too. Since Manichaeism was the the first state-religion to be introduced by a Uyghur-Turk ruler after shamanism, this might be the explanation for the spread of this symbol in Mongolia, East-Tukistan, even when Buddhism and other religions gained more importance, and eventually in the Ottoman empire. Manichaeism somehow acted as a bridge to the cultural sphere of the various Iranic empires and manifold cultures in Middle Eastern and Anatolian antiquity that influenced its neighbours and successors, including Greek and Persian cultures respectively. The crescent symbol, if I am not mistaken, goes back to the originally Phoenician goddess Ashtoreth and the Hellenic goddesses Selene and Phoebe... and that finally lead to this usage of the moon symbol in its crescent-shaped form throughout that region. Nevertheless since animism was the aboriginal belief system of the ancient Turks, Turkic and other similar - related or unrelated - peoples throughout East Central Asia and Siberia, that even shows parallels to Japanese Shintoism, it has to be taken into account that Sun and Moon deities (well, Stars, too..) were deeply inherent to these aboriginal cultures. So it could be mere chance that a crescent was used there as well. Even if you doubt that, the moon played an important role there too, and the crescent shape as symbol was already of relevance in the Manichaeist and Buddhist Uyghur kingdoms! So the Turks who appeared in Anatolia got it from them. Period. 134.100.1.121 10:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question

I read somewhere that the star and crescent is a controvercial symbol for some Muslims because it originated in the pre-Islamic Shamanist beliefs of the Turks. Is this true? What is the symbol's status in Arab countries, which do not really use the star and crescent in their flags? -- unsigned comment by IP 128.54.44.225 23:45, 15 February 2006

All those who are interested in the matter can rather easily find out that the crescent was not used as a symbol of Islam during Muhammad's lifetime, and some back-to-the-origins or Salafi type Muslims dislike it for that reason (so the Taliban flag and the Saudi Arabian flag include Arabic lettering, in accordance with the practices of early Islam, and avoid crescents), but this hasn't prevented a red crescent from showing up on the OIC flag, and the Red Crescent is still the Muslim version of the Red Cross in all Muslim-majority countries... AnonMoos 15:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The crescent was the symbol of the Ottomans and in the late 19th century as the weakening Ottoman sultan tried to give himself more importance by for the first time in the history of the dynasty playing up his role as caliph. The crescent then became associated with the caliphate (in the late 19th century). In Tunisia and Algeria the crescent is a symbol left over by the Ottomans, but notice that in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Morocco (countries that were not controlled by the Ottomans) the crescent has never had any symbolic importance at all. Such that before the Islamic Revolution the symbol of the Red Cross ... in Iran was the Red Lion and Sun. The symbol spread to the Indian subcontinent as a symbol of Islam when after World War I the Muslims of India were afraid that the victorious powers would abolish the caliphate. The modern usage of the symbol in Central Asia can be tied to Turkish nationalism in the late 19th century that unsurprisingly looked at the uncolonized Ottoman Empire for inspiration. And its universal spread can be considered as tied to the fact that Christians, having their own cross, needed to find a symbol for Muslims. So millions of Muslim children for the past century have read Western books seen that the cross is for the Christians, the Star of David for Jews, and the crescent for us, and so its just kind of seeped into our conscience. So it makes a handy symbol if you need to come up for a graphic for a new Islamic center in Jersey, but its religious meaning is nil. Ahassan05 17:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)ahassan05[reply]

To add to ahassan05's comments, the crescent was present in India as an Islamic symbol considerably before WWI, as Indian Muslims increasingly became concerned with the maintenance of the Ottoman Empire as the last remaining independent Muslim power. There were a number of organizations in existance in the 19th c to further this end, for instance the following:

Cemiyet-i Ihya-i Islam - Revival of Islam Society; Memalik-i Islamiye Coğrafya Cemiyeti - Islamic Lands Goegraphic Society; Ittihad-i Islam - Unity of Islam; Meclis-i Müeyyid-i Islamiyye - Assembly for Islamic Aid; Defter-i Iane-i Hindiyye - Register of Indian Contributions; Encümen-i Islam - Committee of Islam; Encümen-i Huddam-i Kaaba - Committee for the Maintenance of the Kaaba

Indian Muslims contributed quite large sums of money, supplies, and expertise to Ottoman endeavors, like medical care, the Hijaz Railway, refugee care, medical assistance during wars, etc.

AHassan, the crescent was used my countless ancient cultures. It was used by later Islamic caliphates as a secular symbol for their empire because it was adapted from the Sassanian Persian Empire which the Arabs conquered in 651CE. Religiously speaking, it has no significance in the iconoclastic religion of Islam. Nakhoda84 14:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Many fundamentalists"??

"Many Christian fundamentalists such as Jack Chick use this symbolism to make a claim that Allah was in fact Hubal who was, in turn, a moon-god worshipped by the pre-Islamic Arabs. This argument is sometimes used to argue that the god of Islam is different from that of the Jews or Christians."

"Many"? If there are more than a few dozen such people I'll eat my hat. -- 19:32, 21 November 2006 68.33.206.93

I don't know how many of them there are, but those who do say that say it loudly, including Pat Robertson: [1] ... -- AnonMoos 00:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the crescent was a symbol of South Arabians and its use for religious purposes was vanished before the advent of Islam, crescent was the symbol of many nations before and each has it own meaning, in Islam it was a symnol of the Islamic calendar which is lunar--195.39.138.146 (talk) 00:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong information about the crescents in flags

It is written "(e.g. Pakistan, The Red Crescent, etc. — though currently none of the Arab states in Arabia or the Mashreq have crescents on their flags)." But this is wrong. check the Algerian flag for instance 217.117.224.177 --00:10, 14 January 2007 217.117.224.177

I already wrote on your IP talk page User talk:217.117.224.177 that "Algeria isn't in either the Mashreq or Arabia -- it's in the Maghreb". If you would log in to a Wikipedia user account, then you might find it easier to catch such messages. AnonMoos 02:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moon god Hubal

There is elaborate discussion on the Hubal page that Hubal has nothing to do with a cerescent / moon and that that whole representation was a figment of immagination of some radical christian propaganda source. Subsequentially all references to Hubal as a "moon god" were removed from the article, yet the reference remains here.

Shouldn't the refference be removed here as well?--89.212.75.6 01:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

actual pictures

usage of the star by the Nasrids map of Albino de Canepa, by South Arabians in structures, furnuture , coinage i hope those images are helpful.--MARVEL (talk) 03:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

?

what are your objections mr.AnonMoos, ihave provided sources and pics, dont revert till we're over--MARVEL (talk) 21:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You have provided no very meaningful or useful explanation as to the necessity and desirability of the extensive text revisions you made in your edits (revisions which several people have objected to, not just myself); instead, you have mostly only offered somewhat brief and cryptic comments on images above. AnonMoos (talk) 22:26, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

those reverts on my edits were blind and i have reverted them back to mine, i have provided sources for my text so stop it--MARVEL (talk) 22:43, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since you have provided no very meaningful or useful explanation as to the necessity and desirability of the extensive text revisions you made in your edits (revisions which several people have objected to, not just myself), the burden would seem to be on you... AnonMoos (talk) 00:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The moon phase called "Waning Crescent" is an oxymoron

When speaking of the moon phases, the article says: "The direction in which the "horns" (the points at the intersection of the two arcs) face indicates whether a crescent is waxing (also young, or increasing) or waning (also old, or decreasing)." However, the word crescent comes from the Italian verb crescere ("to grow", "to augment", "to increase", "to enlarge"), as in the musical notation word crescendo, meaning a passage during which the volume of an instrument must gradually be increased. Thus, a "waning crescent" is self-contradictory. --AVM (talk) 13:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's incorrect according to the original Latin etymology, but it's a fact of life (fortunate or unfortunate according to your point of view) that words from Latin are simply not always used in English according to their original Latin etymologies -- otherwise, the English verb "to populate" would mean "to devastate, destroy" (which is the actual meaning of the Latin verb populare). See further Genetic fallacy.

Anyway, the word "decrescent" is not commonly used as a noun in English, but generally only as an adjective... AnonMoos (talk) 13:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. See the note on heraldic terminology which is now in the article. AnonMoos (talk) 21:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"artistic" crescents in astronomy

We could mention that the "artistic" type of crescent shape (the area of one circle removed from the area of another circle) is actually found in astronomy during eclipses... AnonMoos (talk) 06:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DOESNT THE CRESCENT MOON HAVE SOMTHING TO DO WITH ISIS?

Doesnt Crescent moon have something to do ith Ancient egpytian goddess Isis Hors of a cow?Crescent moon this evening Friday July 24,2009 21stcent decided Drt.Edson Andre' Johnson D.D.ULC PINEAPPLEMAN (talk) 05:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)PINEAPPLEMAN (talk) 05:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's actually more to do with Hathor, but in late Egyptian religion, there was a great degree of conflation between different deities. I'm not sure that the crescent as such is strongly associated with any Egyptian deity. The crescent moon appears in Egyptian writing as hieroglyphs N11 and N12, but they're not used in writing any names of Egyptian deities, as far as the information currently available to me goes... AnonMoos (talk) 13:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Symbolism and Subsections

I was thinking of perhaps dividing the "symbolism" section into subsections for each culture. I believe this would make the article easier to navigate and more user friendly. I'm perfectly willing to do the work, I just wanted to know if this would be acceptable. - NickGrayLOL (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How many subsections do you propose? A division into ancient symbolisms, Muslim cultures, and "other" would fit in with the expository flow, but I'm not sure whether creating many more subsections than that would be useful. AnonMoos (talk) 21:51, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is pretty much what I was thinking, I agree that there isn't enough information to merit any more organization than what you described at the present time. - NickGrayLOL (talk) 22:16, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Symbolism of Crescent

The crescent is a pagan / occult / astrology / witchcraft / devil worship symbol. The observer will note that the symbol depicts an occultation of the sun by the moon, such as during a solar eclipse. The star symbol is akin to the glimpse of light seen when the periphery of the sun becomes visible again as the moon transits. All religions are contaminated by these Sun, Moon and Star symbols to some degree. They mean to direct worship / attention away from the Creator and to the created things. It's a form of defilement. The bottom line is that this basically represents allegiance with the devil and rebellion against the Creator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.139.35.250 (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever -- the ancient Hebrews of Biblical times, no matter how strictly monotheistic they were, observed the young crescent moon right after sunset to know what the first day of each month would be, and the "woman clothed with sun and the moon under her feet" is an iconic figure of the Book of Revelation, chapter 12. Something which is strictly your personal opinion, or the doctrine of a small group, does not necessarily deserve a place on this article. AnonMoos (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Saturn

According to some people in the 'alternative knowledge' community, the crescent symbol is originally not the actually the moon, but Saturn. http://www.pinterest.com/pin/122723158568414547/ This is, by the way, related to the alternative knowledge topic of the 'electric universe'. --95.34.142.247 (talk) 14:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That would not appear to have great historic plausibility, since anyone with halfway-normal vision can easily see the crescent moon in the sky for several nights of each month, while the phases of even Venus (much less Saturn) were not known until the telescope was invented. The crescent phases of the planets are only visible when they're farther than usual from the Earth, and their angular visual separation from the sun (as observed from Earth) is less than usual... AnonMoos (talk) 15:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Geometry

Is cresent plane figure Ishanbull (talk) 16:04, 25 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The crescent as the intersection of two circles is of course a 2D thing. The area of a spherical body illuminated by a light source which is visible from a particular viewpoint is originally 3D. AnonMoos (talk) 15:13, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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. Cant seem to understand why Crescent and Star(venus?) used as a Islamic Faith device?

Have read article very good! But did not see why Star and Crescent are used?Is this dating to establishment of Islam/ Or? Thank you!Stilletoblade (talk) 20:10, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In the early years of Islam, leaders were opposed to any simple geometric symbol to represent the religion, and the Caliphal coins only had Arabic letters on them, the Dome of the Rock only Arabic letters and abstract decoration. The star and crescent only came in later. AnonMoos (talk) 22:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Islam.

The Muslim calendar is lunar. Is it for sure that the crescent has nothing to do with Arabia? --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (User:Sidoroff-B) 09:17, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Many peoples have historically used Lunar calendars (and still do for religious/cultural purposes), such as the Jews and the Chinese, to start with. The crescent was not a religious symbol of Islam in Islam's early days... AnonMoos (talk) 14:27, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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