Talk:Place names in Ireland

2004 post

A few quick questions:

Africa is usually, per de Bhaldraithe, etc, translated as "an Afraic." But older books use "an Aifric", and that's much more like how I would pronounce the continents name. Any opinions, esp academics, native speakers, or owners of superold books.

Oileán Mhanann-Mhanainn. A cursory search shows about equal use, a bit towards Mhanainn, but some of that is Scottish Gaelic. On its own, I think "Manann", agus the language is "Gaeilge Mhanainn" or "Manannais". Any (similar) takers on this? Meabhar 17:14, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

RE: Oileán Mhanann - On its own, Manainn (old feminine -u ending word c.f. nom. Éiriú, gen. Éireann, dat. Éirinn; nom. Albu, gen. Alban, dat. Albain; for Isle of Man it was nom. Manu, gen. Manann, dat. Manainn). The Irish words for Scotland and Mann have since lost their old nominative form, instead using the dative in its place. The old Irish nominative for Ireland has been modified to its current version, Éire. The correct translation for Isle of Man therefore is Manainn as a standalone version or Mhanann when used in conjunction with a qualifying noun, e.g. Oileán Mhanann ("Isle of Man"), Tiarna Mhanann ("Lord of Mann") etc. Regarding the language, it is translated as Manainnis or Gaeilge Mhanann. The latter is the version approved by Foras na Gaeilge at their terminology page but Manainnis can be found on most modern dictionaries too. --MacTire02 (talk) 12:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Translations

Hi; I would question the accuracy of many of these place names. Anyone else have any qualms?Fergananim 01:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

A good place for official translations of Irish placenames is [1]. Djegan 19:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I would also challenge some of the translations of county names. Some of them seem a little creative. I think Galway derives from the word 'gall' (= foreigner) and not from some supposed female personal name. Exactly who those foreigners might be poses an intriguing question.Grist 13:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The translations for Provinces of Canada look ify a search for Ontaeireo only gives four hits, also the web site http://www.acmhainn.ie/oideas/oideas0306.htm which Foras na Gaeilge runs gave Ontario for Ontario. Fabhcún

I agree. I can't confirm most of the Irish names for Canadian provinces/territories listed here, except Talamh an Éisc for Newfoundland and Alba(in) Nua for Nova Scotia. Éire Nua for New Brunswick seems especially suspicious; this Wikipedia page is the only thing I can find on Google where the two terms are equated. I'm removing everything except Talamh an Éisc and Albain Nua and taking off the {{disputed}} template. Angr/talk 15:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Angr any idea on what should be done over on ga: Fabhcún 16:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd say articles on Canadian provinces at ga: should be written under their English (or in the case of Nunavut, Inuktitut) names until authoritative sources for a distinct Irish name can be found. Obviously Newfoundland should be at ga:Talamh an Éisc, and Nova Scotia should be at ga:Alba Nua or ga:Albain Nua (with a redirect from the other one), but I'd say the other names shouldn't be translated unless we can find a reliable source to show those names are actually used as Gaeilge. Angr/talk 16:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

On a separate issue, could someone confirm if my translation of Australasia is correct. The rare time that I've had to use the term in Irish, I've just said the Continent of AustraliaAfn 10:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Changed names

Why are faulty forms of names presented here as the Irish names of towns, when they are not? Why does this page link to the Placenames Orders which lay out the official Irish names of places and yet ignore them, listing a number of incorrect Irish forms? Is it because the Irish names "seem too short"? I suggest giving a list of the official Irish names for the places (as laid down in the Placenames Orders) and then, perhaps in brackets, tell people what the over-long, over-gaelicized version once in use was. Gearb 21:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The article mentions places having their names changed: "...changed from the Irish form used since independence, e.g. Bray went from Brí Chualann to Bré" - what's the story behind this? My guess is that the gaelicisation of placenames after independence had a political tinge to it, like much of the gaelic revival over the last century and a bit; for example County Laois was previously Queen's County, and its article says "The county was renamed in the early 1920s, following a competition.". Does anybody know where this new name came from, and are there many other irish placenames which are similarly 'artificial'? --VinceBowdren 23:19, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

The way that it is written is a bit confusing. It really does not have anything to do with English name version, for the most part (about 90% i would guess) the English names of places in Ireland are anglesized versions of the Irish name, the problem is that that it would not have been uncommon for a town to have two or three versions of it's Irish name, usually local variations, or "incorrect versions". Basically the placename orders listed, and the one brought into to effect last year i think, are working to create a set of standardised placenames in the Irish language, so while the English name of the towns haven't, for the most part, changed, the Irish names have changed due to these orders. The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has some info on their website, as well as come of the copies of the some of the completed orders, here. I hope this explains this some, i am guessing some one could explain it better then me. As for your example, Queens County came about during English rule, so it never had a Irish equivalent, why it was named such i don't know really, i am guessing their is a historical context for it. County Offaly was also known as Kings County, named in a similar way that Queens County was named, but their is nothing in the article about that name change either. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I would say that the process of simplyfying the Irish language had large influence on spelling variation. Many towns, cities, counties have at least two variations of their name. The older names (pre 1950s), prior to the official written standards, tend to be longer names and less faithful to the actual pronunciation; newer spellings are simplier. As pointed out above in recent years their are renewed activities been carried out to standardise spellings and place them on a legal basis with the English names. This is just about as much of a explaination I can offer. Djegan 19:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I added the information about the 1973 Place Names Commission and it likely makes sense to refer to the following web pages [2] [3] as there was no official list published until that time except for the Ainmneacha Gaeilge na mBailte Poist (1969) of which I have a copy but it would be too long to publish on Wikipedia even though it might be considered fair use. VinceBowdren asked about the story behind the name changes and the above mentioned web page gives some more, though scant, detail. Basically there was no concerted effort to officially publish a list of town names until 1973 when new names were given to some towns while others remained as they had been since adopted after independence. Other town names were spelled differently that heretofore as occasionally reflected in the difference between the town postmark as used on mail (sometimes for many years after 1973) and the Irish Place Names list.

I understand there was controversy about some of the names published by the Language Commission by Irish scholars who felt some new names did not reflect a true original translation or meaning of the town name but I suppose that is another story. Some new names just seem too simple, Bré being one example. ww2censor 16:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed Co. Clare from the list of counties not named for a town - the town of Clare is now known as Clarecastle. I would suggest that Co. Kerry also should be removed from that list, in view of the name in Gaelic of Castleisland - Oileann Chiarrai. Gabhala 20:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Translation of Dublin

It should also be worth pointing out that Dubh Linn and Baile Átha Cliath are not exactly the same thing. Dubh Linn was the name given to a settlement on the banks of the river Liffey in the vicinity of the first Viking settlement surrounding Wood Quay (location of the Dublin Corporation offices), but Baile Átha Cliath was the name given to an area in the vicinity of Heuston Station, approximately 1 kilometre from Dubh Linn. I'm not entirely sure why Baile Átha Cliath took precedence over Dubh Linn in Irish but I guess (and it is only my opinion, though I'm sure proper research has been conducted) as Dubh Linn was the centre of foreign control in Ireland, it was a less preferred option in Irish. --MacTire02 (talk) 12:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Etymology: Graig - church or townland?

The Meath CC uses the word "Graig" to refer to small communities such as crossroad villages. See Meath CC Development Plan section "Development in Graigs". In Kilkenny there is a Graiguenamanagh which translates to "Village of the monks" and also the page Monastic Grange which defines "Grange" as the village or townland (without references). However, this website defines Graiguemanagh as meaning "the grange or church of the monks". There seems to be a lot of overlap. Is there one definition or is the word used to mean different things in different areas? Can it be added to the Etymology section? The reason I am asking is because Kilcloon is the name of the parish and townland. I want to add the definition of Kilcloon as a "Graig" (village) according to Meath CC but require some clarification first (and hopefully a reference). Kmcnamee (talk) 19:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move

I propose we move this page to Irish placenames (currently a redirect) or Placenames in Ireland. The current title – Place names in Irish – implies that the article is just a list of places with their Irish translations. It is (and should be) more than that. I'm hoping it will grow to become more like the Welsh placenames article.
Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 17:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I have moved the page to Place names in Ireland. When this article was begun it was merely a list of places with their Irish translations. Now it's no longer just a list and is a more general topic about placenames on the island of Ireland. ~Asarlaí 20:16, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Works for me. —Tamfang (talk) 06:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

I suggest we move it to Irish Toponymy. - HumanWithoutName (talk) 06:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

On second thought the current page name is easier to understand, perhaps other toponymy pages should change to Place names in xxxx. HumanWithoutName (talk) 06:12, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Names of English origin

What are some examples of place names of English origin in Ireland? The only ones I can think of are no longer used, having had their Irish names restored in the 1920s, like Kingstown, Queenstown, Philipstown, Maryborough, King's County, and Queen's County. The only other thing I can think of offhand is the first two syllables of Londonderry. +Angr 15:21, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty — most of which have town, ford, bridge, mill, abbey or castle in their names. Have a look through list of towns and villages in the Republic of Ireland or on Google Maps. ~Asarlaí 15:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, "abbey" and "castle" are of French origin, and "ford" is sometimes a folk etymology, as in Longford. I did find Westport, but "port" is also of French origin. Bridgend and Churchtown are good examples. +Angr 15:59, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Abbey and castle are also English words so that splitting hairs on the issue. Waringstown, Castledawson, Whiteabbey, Monkstown, Newtonstewart, Newtonhamilton - are some examples of English language origin names (even if some do include surnames of possible Scottish origin). Mabuska ^(talk) 22:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Article problems

Several issues with this article:

1. The present lede sounds like original research and whilst i don't disagree with its points, it needs several verifiable sources to back it up.
2. This article is not solely about Irish versions of place names regardless of their actual origin. This deals specifically with the counties which don't all derive from Irish but by on large their county town, except of course for Tyrone, Fermanagh etc. Each county is linked to so there other forms can be easily found as well as via links to the Counties of Ireland article. - done
3. The scope of the agreed Ireland Manual of Style for place names covers this article so all places in Northern Ireland that derive from Irish must have a derive tag used for them, and places that don't are to be left to their infoboxes. This article has no reason to be exempt. Many of the places clearly don't derive from Irish and this article is not about Irish versions of all places in Ireland north or south.
4. In fact is there even a need to list all of these towns and villages? Especially as its not complete (article would be immense in length if they were all included) so would it not be better to have more examples in their respective origin sections instead? A link can also be provided to the lists of places in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in the see also section or whichever.

I have already started work on improving the article by revamping the county section (hence why i've striked it out above). Reasons why the counties that are named after county towns are in a sentence and not a list - it follows convention on when to use lists, and the other two lists have descriptions, which are presented better in list format. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the list of cities, towns and villages. When I changed and renamed this article I wasn't sure what to do with the list, which is why it had been left. I've also added some more info. What we need to focus on now is adding references. ~Asarlaí 03:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I've revamped the streets section to also fit in with the overall topic of the article - the origin of place names in Ireland, as well as keeping it along the guidelines of the IMOS. However i'm finding it hard to find actual streets of Irish origin in Dublin so feel free to expand the Republic of Ireland section. Almost all streets and roads in Dublin appear to be named after people. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The way i've changed a section of the street names section to do secifically with Belfast i think has shown a good broad list of different origins for street and roads names, i.e. after settlements, people, buildings, townlands and parishes.

Irish name first

The Irish name should be first, then anglicised spelling, english translation, then example, for the table. 81.129.84.72 (talk) 01:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Ros, rush, etc.

The translation given is a "woodland". This is only partially accurate. A more appropriate translation would be a wooded promontory, and can mean a small wooded peninsula which protrudes into the water (Rush, Kilrush, Rosses Point, etc.) or simply a wooded hill which protrudes into the surrounding landscape (Roscrea, Ross Cross in Co. Meath, New Ross, etc.). ^{‣Mac Tíre} _Cowag 12:31, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done. ~Asarlaí 14:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)