Talk:Lij Iyasu

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 02:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Sources on the net are totally confusing on how he should be titled - "Lij" is just "Mr.", and some sites seem to use that to emphasize that he was never crowned. However, there are four other Iyasus that ruled Ethiopia, so it seems more usefully consistent to call him a "V". But if anybody knows what to do, feel free to fix. Stan 06:48, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Iyasu could be considered Emperor, although he did not undergo coronation. A number of Emperors (e.g., Sissinios) delayed their coronation until they could claim a major military victory. Inasmuch as Iyasu was overthrown by Haile Selassie with the support of a large group of nobles & the Ethiopian Church, conventional Ethiopian history has tended to blacken his reputation (& also question his legitimacy) as much as possible. But as far as I can tell, no authority seriously questions the fact that he was the Emperor between his grandfather Menelik II & Zauditu; which is why, after checking Paul Henze's book, I reverted Whig's changes. -- llywrch 20:03, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

The title of "Lij" is not just "Mr.", but is a title granted only to the sons of high nobles. The equivalent to "Mr." is "Ato", and Lij Iyasu has never been refered to by any source as an "Ato". He is sometimes refered to as "Abeto" which is a title reserved for royal sons, or sometimes the title of "Abeto-Hoy" in conjunction with the title of "Lij" which he seems to have prefered to use during his life time. The current Iyasuist claimant, his grandson Dr. Girma Yohannes Iyasu, uses the title of "Abeto-Hoy Lij Girma" as his style in his claimed role as Crown Prince of Ethiopia. It is also erroneous to state that Iyasu was overthrown by Haile Selassie, who played a minor role in the dethronement. The conspiracy was led largely by the conservative faction at court led by Fitawrarri Hapte Giorgis Denagde and other high nobles who were outraged by Iyasu's behavior as monarch, and his reforminst leanings. Haile Selassie ultimately benefitted from their acts, but it was a long and difficult road for him between the removal of Iyasu and his own ascendence to complete power. User:Sendeq

This article seems biased. 69.160.6.226 02:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Please explain — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 09:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Date of Birth

According to this page, Iyasu was born in 1887, but at http://www.angelfire.com/ny/ethiocrown/lij.html they say he was born in 1901. Which is correct? nmw 03:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Ugh -- both of them are wrong. When he insisted on being made ruler in 1911, Iyasu was a minor, IIRC 16 years old. That would suggest he was born in 1897. I'll have to look at my references when I get home tonight. -- llywrch (talk) 23:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is more complex than I had first thought. First, the year 1887 apparently comes from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, so unless this is a scanning error, this is a very strong argument to Iyasu's year of birth -- only the most careless of fact checkers would overlook that a 14 year-old boy was said to 24 years of age, or vice versa. Harold Marcus (Menelik II, p. 230) clearly assumes that Iyasu was born in 1897. However, Haggai Ehrlich (Ras Alula, p. 125) refers to the fact that the son of Ras Mikael (Iyasu's father) was a guest of Ras Alula in March 1888! I haven't found a reliable source that provides the date when Ras Mikael married Lij Iyasu's mother yet. By this point in Ethiopian history, there are enough reliable witnesses that this article can't simply resort to WP:NPOV & write "Some say this, others that" -- so the search continues. -- llywrch (talk) 23:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

May I suggest Prowess, Piety, and Politics: The Chronicle of Abeto Iyasu and Empress Zewditu of Ethiopia (1909-1930) by Gebre-Igziabiher Elyas and Reidulf K. Molvaer? It is a chronicle written in the early 20th century by Gebre-Egziabher Elyas and edited (with notes and preface) by Reidulf Molvaer. It would probably be useful not only for the expansion of this article (which I know you've been working on to get up to FA status) but also would probably be a good source for finding out his true date of birth. While it may not give the day, it would certainly let us know whether or not he was a minor in 1916. By the way, what happened to that photograph of Iyasu? I know it is PD in the U.S., but what are the standards nowadays for those types of images on Wikipedia (not Wikicommons)? — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 00:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The picture of Iyasu was lost in the the jihad/crusade/re-education effort/commercial incentives concerning Fair Use images. (There -- have I failed to offend anyone's sensibility?) However, I didn't try to upload another copy of this image & protect it with the proper language because I'm not 100% sure that it is in the public domain -- although, when it comes to the issue of creating a useful reference work, I'm gradually losing my interest over that issue. As for the reference, Yom, thanks for the pointer -- I'll look into it. -- llywrch (talk) 01:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I have been looking for the Aleqa Gebre-Egziabher's book, & this search has led me to a quotation from Professor Tadesse Tamrat which is worth adding to this article -- although I don't know quite where it should go: had Iyasu succeeded in holding onto the "ancient throne", observes the professor, "he would have been perhaps the only monarch in the world to have claimed decent from Christ's ancestor King Solomon of Israel (through Menelik), and the Prophet Mohammed (through his father, Mohammed/Mik'ael)!" (review of this book in Journal of African History, vol. 37 (1996), p. 167) -- llywrch (talk) 06:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Good article nomination on hold

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of January 13, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Good encyclopedic-style prose, section ordering, etc, but some clarifications and MoS work needed. In the intro, it calls him the "designated by uncrowned" emperor. Shouldn't this say defacto? Elaborating on his precise history can come after, but it was confusing to read that in the lead. For the block quotes in the article, I've switched to a <blockquote> format. You could also use a {{blockquote}} template. Of course, using the colon indent is an option, but I think the other formats look cleaner, and they are the preferred method of usage per WP:MOSQUOTE. One more issue: I know that technically jihad is still a foreign term meriting italics per MoS. But it is very commonly understood as a repercussion of Islamic terrorism, and I think it would be better to not italicize it. Minimal change to text is desirable in terms of readability, but maybe a link would suffice for those unfamiliar. What do you think? Moving on, I know that infoboxes are optional, but what would you say to adding a biobox? It's not a requirement of the criteria, so just an idea.

2. Factually accurate?: Sterling work in references and inline citations, kudos.

3. Broad in coverage?: Covers all major aspects and stays on topic.

4. Neutral point of view?: Fair and equal treatment of all significant points of view.

5. Article stability? Of course.

6. Images?: I know photos of long-dead Ethiopian rulers a not exactly a dime a dozen, but some kind of image, even in the body, would be nice (note that I've already passed the article on the images criterion, requiring images is only for FA). Perhaps an image of Menelek, or a look for an illustration from Google Books?

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. — VanTucky 00:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Notes

For readability, please place any comments or questions pertaining to the hold below rather than within the body of the review. Thank you!

• Important note: the nomination of this article wasn't completed correctly, in the future when nominating please make sure to place the appropriate template on the article talk as outlined at WP:GAC VanTucky 00:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[Copied from my talk]

Sorry for the delay; I've had some personal business that's taking up my time. Here are my questions, posed in a manner that I hope is not comabtive, a failing I often display:

• "In the intro, it calls him the 'designated but uncrowned' emperor. Shouldn't this say defacto?" -- IIRC, Ethiopian custom was that an Emperor would not be crowned until following an important event (like a military victory) in his reign. This was not unusual: another example Haile Selassie ruled for several months until he could throw a proper gala & introduce all of his titled visitors from Europe. However, I have the impression that this fact is often mentioned by his enemies to discredit his legitimacy. I'm not quite sure how to phrase this in a way that doesn't reek of original research or peacock language.
• "technically jihad is still a foreign term meriting italics per MoS. But it is very commonly understood as a repercussion of Islamic terrorism, and I think it would be better to not italicize it. Minimal change to text is desirable in terms of readability, but maybe a link would suffice for those unfamiliar." -- I am quoting Trimingham in this section, & IIRC he italicizes the word. Unless you think I should suppress all italics in this quotation.
• "I know photos of long-dead Ethiopian rulers a not exactly a dime a dozen, but some kind of image, even in the body, would be nice" -- I know of an image at the RoyalArk website (which is one of the external links), but I don't want to add it into the page until I understand whether it is PD or Fair Use. Unless you think it is worth the hassle of dealing with the "Free image" types & their bots.

If you don't feel you can answer these questions, a pointer to the best place to ask would be great. Thanks in advance. -- llywrch (talk) 23:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Some responses: First, what you're describing still meets the definition of de facto, albeit a unique variety. I don't think further elaboration would be OR or too flowery, but saying de facto is a good way of making clear what you're basically meaning, which is that he was practically-speaking the Emperor, but it wasn't official. If it's italics in the quote, it should stay that way. Don't worry about the images if it's a bit bother, it doesn't really matter for GA. That answer your questions? VanTucky 04:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, what I'm looking for is feedback, trying to figure out what this article needs to be accessible. This may not be the wisest thing to say here, I don't have any serious interest in getting this to GA -- just in making this a good, usable article. Of all of the points you've raised, the part on the section "designated but uncrowned" is the one I've been most seriously thinking about how to resolve, especially because the phrase de facto seems to miss an important nuance. -- llywrch (talk) 04:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that's perfectly fine. I'll try and tweak it, keeping that in mind. VanTucky 05:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Since you weren't really interested in GA to begin with (and bc the hold period has passed), I've failed the article for now. I'll come back and do some more editing per the above as soon as I get a chance. VanTucky 02:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Article name

I know nothing about this topic, but I suggest that either this assertion: "he is usually referred to as Lij Iyasu" is wrong, or the article name is wrong. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we should use as the article name the one that "is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources" --Dweller (talk) 09:51, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

If no-one is bothered about it, I'll rename the article to Lij Iyasu in a week or two. If someone is interested, please indicate as such. --Dweller (talk) 11:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

You may not be aware that the style of this monarch is a loaded issue; I tried to point this out above in my response to VanTucky. On the face of it, many books on Ethiopian history do refer to him as Lij Iyasu (which can be translated either "Prince Iyasu" or "the boy Iyasu). Despite this he was, by any definition of the term, the fifth ruler or Emperor of Ethiopia with the name of Iyasu; definitely not a good one, but still a ruler. By Ethiopian custom, when a man was proclaimed ruler (either Negus or Negusta negas), he kept the title for life; as far as I have been able to determine, Ethiopian constitutional theory does not recognize the idea of a former ruler or Emperor. This was usually not an issue for most of Ethiopian history because in normal times only one Emperor ruled, & his predecessor was dead due to natural causes or killed in battle -- with external or internal enemies. One way this problem was avoided was through the unparalleled practice of confining all legitimate claimants to the throne to a location such as Wehni or Amba Geshen; the inmates might also be Emperors, but they had no way to act on this. However, there were times when this became an embarrassing problem, such as during the Zemene Mesafint, when at one point there were about half a dozen Emperors of Ethiopia at one point!

Now Iyasu's successor, Haile Selassie, came to the throne in a manner which is not widely considered legitimate in itself -- a coup effected by the Ethiopian ruling class -- so it is to his benefit if Iyasu's legitimacy is played down: the allegations of his religious faith (he was accused of being a Muslim), who had a stronger claim by birth to the throne, labelling him Lij instead of calling him an emperor, etc. And Haile Selassie's version of things has been accepted in part because Iyasu was a nonperson for the following 75-80 years, but mostly because history is written by the victors, & Haile Selassie was the victor in this case.

That, in as brief as space, is why I believe labelling this article as "Iyasu V" is the closest to a neutral point of view as we can get. I admit this article needs more work -- especially to explain this technical point -- but so do a very large number of articles relating to Ethiopia, & I've grown weary of trying to create & fix as many of them as I can as quickly as I can. -- llywrch (talk) 16:34, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. When NPOV hits against COMMONNAME, we have to tread carefully. I'm off to check how consensus worked on Ivan the Terrible, because it seems to be it resolved as you suggest. Oh, and, just for fun, I might create an article on Nogbad the bad. --Dweller (talk) 09:49, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah. Recent(ish) consensus here was that the epithet is appropriate. What do you think? --Dweller (talk) 10:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem in this case is that COMMONNAME doesn't work well in this case. Before I started reading extensively on Ethiopian history, I could only name two, maybe three Emperors of Ethiopia: Haile Selassie, Menelik, & maybe Tewodros. And one could make the argument that the "common English form" of Tewodros is Theodore, & for Yohannes IV is John -- which is what the contemporary English language newspapers called them. So "Ivan the Terrible", although it's a good idea, doesn't work as an analogy in this case. Can anyone find a better one? -- llywrch (talk) 05:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Title of Leult

The article previously used the title of Leult (Princess) when refering to Emperor Menelik II's daughter Zewditu Menelik and to Emperor Yohannes IV's granddaughter Romanework Mengesha. Neither these women would have been titled Leult at the time because the title did not come into use for princesses until 1916 when Zewditu came to the throne as Empress following the deposing of her nephew Iyasu. The proper title would have been Woizero and I have edited the article to reflect that. Romanework Mengesha was not among the women who were recognized as Leult when the title was granted after 1916. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.127.253.13 (talk) 22:00, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

"Iyasu V" revisited

As has been pointed out in the past, this page title "Iyasu V" is inappropriate, not to say a creative fake.

I was just reading a book by French author/adventurer Henry de Monfreid, who lived in Ethiopia on and off for some 20 years starting in 1911, and in his many references to the period, he only speaks of "Lid Yassou" (Vers les terres hostiles de l'Éthiopie, 1933). Likewise, British traveler/explorer Wilfred Thesiger, born in Addis Ababa in 1910, only speaks of "Lij Yasu" (The Danakil Diary, 1998, p. xiv). French and Italian magazines of the period refer to Lij Yassou or Ligg Yassu (Nuovo Re dell'Abissinnia Ligg Yassu). No Iyasu V anywhere.

American diplomatic cables and agreements of the period refer to "Prince Lidj Yassou", "Crown Prince Lidj Yassou" or "His Royal Highness Prince Lidj Yassou, successor of Menelik II, King of Kings of Ethiopia" (examples: President Wilson to Prince Lidj Yassou of Ethiopia, Washington, October 14, 1914; or His Royal Highness Prince Lidj Yassou in the name of the Empire, and J. Q. Wood, in the name of the United States of America, have agreed and stipulated that as follow:" http://images.library.wisc.edu/FRUS/EFacs/1920v02/reference/frus.frus1920v02.i0010.pdf).

Whatever the reason, while Lij Yassu was recognized internationally as the legitimate ruler of Ethiopia (or Abyssinia as it was still often called) he never bore the title of Yassu V (or Iyassu V, or whatever) and was never referred to under that name, either officially or unofficially, even by himself, it appears.

Consequently, the title of this page is fanciful, and unless someone can present a reasonable case for retaining it, it should be changed (to "Lij Yasu", for instance).--Lubiesque (talk) 22:18, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I support this if this is what the source says. An explanation should be made in the article though about the usage of Iyasu V since it is used. A historiography of the name would be interesting.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 02:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Rather few results for "Iyasu V", far in between and not very convincing. A book titled "The Life and Times of Lij Iyasu of Ethiopia" was published very recently. The book contains a series of articles written by some 8 different scholars. You can see a picture of this English-language book's cover, presentation and table of content on this French-language page: http://www.africantrain.org/the-life-and-times-of-lij-iyasu-of-ethiopia

It you look carefully (including in the table of content if you scroll down) you will find "Iyasu V" nowhere, only Lij Iyasu or Prince Lij Iyasu. On the occasion of a visit he made to the construction site of an extension of the Franco-Ethiopian Railway in February 1915, the French official report speaks of the " visite du prince régnant Yassou" (visit of ruling prince Yassou). I suppose the reason Lij Iyasu was never called Iyasu V, or even "emperor", is because he was never crowned, even if he ruled as if he was the emperor. Incidentally, Haile Selassie was never called Haile Selassie before he was crowned emperor in 1930.

Wikipedia has a rule that names, titles, etc. used in articles should be the ones most commonly used. Since Iyasu V is quite rare (and I would say, mistakenly used in all cases), there is a very good reason to change the title of this article to Lij Iyassu of Ethiopia (as in the title of this recent book), or something similar. DOWN WITH IYASU V!--Lubiesque (talk) 21:19, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

A source should still be found why some people use "Iyasu V" since some sources do. Have you actually read the book "The Life and Times of Lij Iyasu of Ethiopia" maybe it would explain within its pages why there is the confusion.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 07:20, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 13 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOved  — Amakuru (talk) 21:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

---

Lij Iyasu of Ethiopia → Lij Iyasu – There is no other Iyasu outside Ethiopia. So I suggested to move the page with Lij Iyasu or Iyasu V. The Supermind (talk) 15:28, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The short title is enough to identify him and the longer form is not the norm for Ethiopian monarchs here, it would seem. Srnec (talk) 03:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

• Half-support - Looking at Category:Emperors of Ethiopia, the longer form doesn't appear common here in Wikipedia for article titles. However, there are Iyasu I, Iyasu II, Iyasu III, and Iyasu IV, and the article does say also known as Iyasu V, so although I support dropping the "of Ethiopia", I have no preference for Iyasu V or Lij Iyasu; it would depend on how he is most known in the sources (which I'm not going to check for). Platonk (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.