Talk:Matthias the Apostle

Untitled

These paragraphs were removed from the main article as they were not in the correct form for an he would become worthy. Jesus chooses all of us in the same way. What does Jesus want you to become?

In His Footsteps:----

I found the original quote from Clement at www.ccel.org/fathers2/, and am going to put that text back in without commentary, and with the citation. Hope that's sufficiently NPOV. (And no, I didn't insert the original text quoted above, and fully agree with its removal.) Wesley

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In my tweaks and tightening, substituting another quote for paraphrase, etc, I've removed the following, which is factually incorrect:

According to Acts i:21 - 22), Matthias was one of the seventy disciples of Jesus, and had been with him from his baptism by John to the Ascension The author does subtly imply that the 120 gathered about had been with Jesus since his baptism in the River Jordan, which is stretching a point. Matthias is not individually singled out. Does this point, made to strengthen the authenticity of the newly-chosen apostle, need to be discussed in the article? --Wetman 20:11, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Restoring/removing interwiki

Of the Interwiki links made by a bot a few days ago, all that were in languages which I could make any sence out of (sv:, pl:, it:, fr:, nl:) pointed at S:t Matthew. I changed sv: and removed the rest (don't speak those languages). I also removed zh:, ko:, and ru:, assuming that they too, added by the same bot at the same time, were likely to be false. /Dcastor 02:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Codex Barroccianus

I can find no information about this whatsoever. Can anyone elaborate on attribution? User:michaelkvance

Colchis

Going along with the tradition that Matthias died in Colchis, I recently witnessed a grave marker for him placed in the Roman ruin at Gonio in Georgia (unfortunately the marker gave little information about the source(s) of this tradition). I added this information to the article. --68.162.157.62 17:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)JDWS

Image

Are you sure that this image represents Saint Matthias? The Greek caption says Ο Αγιος Ματθαίος -> Saint Mattheos = Matthew and not Matthias (Saint Matthias would be: Ο Αγιος Ματθίας). Slovene User:Marino —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.212.1.189 (talk) 10:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

You are right, the picture depicts Saint Matthew and not Saint Matthias--K kokkinos (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I added an image representing Matthias, rather than Matthew. --Aaron Walden 10:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Anglican Commemoration date

This years Anglican Common Worship lectionary (ISBN 0-7151-2110-3) describes the commemoration of St Matthias on May 14th, not February 24th. I don't know enough to suggest when this changed or whether either date is 'traditional' Gw russell 20:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

• There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Bartholomew the Apostle which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 18:30, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
• That discussion was closed as "no concensus after 14 days". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Fox's book of Martyrs

Fox's Book of Martyrs says that he was stone at Jerusalem and then beheaded. Here's the text: "Matthias Of whom less is known than of most of the other disciples, was elected to fill the vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded." Saksjn (talk) 22:18, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. GTBacchus^(talk) 17:47, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

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Matthias the Apostle → Saint Matthias — The issues here are similar to a recent move of "Saint Matthew". This person is already the primary meaning of "Saint Matthias", and is the only Christian saint of this name. There is a "Saint Matthias (disambiguation)" page, but this mostly lists churches and the like, the only other person here is a religious con artist who sometimes used this name. Relisted for further input. Jafeluv (talk) 21:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

PatGallacher (talk) 15:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment the current naming clearly delineates this person from run of the mill saints, and seems that for all apostles, would be a good idea, since they existed before the formal sainting system was developed... 76.66.192.73 (talk) 05:40, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

"They existed before the formal sainting system was developed" is a historical and theological minefield, which, although it would be appropriate to discuss in the context of some articles, would be better not to get into for the purpose of deciding article names. PatGallacher (talk) 11:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support per UCN. Flamarande (talk) 21:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
• Comment The previous move was made with the note that 'Saint' violates wikipedia's policy on honorifics. (A note that that has not been addressed in this discussion.) --RegentsPark (talk) 18:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I quote the naming conventions for clergy at WP:NCWC: "Saints go by their most common English name, minus the 'Saint', unless they are only recognisable by its inclusion. For example, Paul of Tarsus, Ulrich of Augsburg but Saint Patrick." So I suggest this doesn't violate any policy, it is allowable. PatGallacher (talk) 14:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support because Matthias was not one of the original Apostles (he was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot by the other 11 Apostles), so Saint Matthias seems a better description. Other saints, such as Saint Dismas, use saint in their title where the name is not adequate by itself. An alternative would be a move to Matthias, which at the moment is a dab page. Cjc13 (talk) 13:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Something peculiar seems to have happened here. It looks as the discussed move was never actually made? Anyway, moved now. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, or alternatively I've probably just misread the discussion above. Ooops. Someone will probably reverse it. Well anyway, it's hardly an NPOV naming. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:03, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

St Matthias' Day

I have just put in a little information about St. Matthias' Day. Does any one think it might deserve its own article? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:59, 29 december 2000 (UTC)

I've tagged your recent insertion as needing a reference to prove it is legitimate info. Please supply that link before someone deletes it as your original research.

As far as deserving its own article, that would be up for you to decide. If you have enough material (and references to back up that info), anything is deserving. Ckruschke (talk) 17:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)Ckruschke

Thank you for the response. The source of my information was a book I read a long time ago called "Everybody's Birthday Book" which had about the days of the year and the special features of them. It was a long time ago when I read it, so I can see whether I can find some more recent sources! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Where is Aethiopia?

"in Aethiopia (by the region of Colchis, now in modern-day Georgia)" and note a ? or Ethiopia where the link takes us to? --2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:87C:8827:9DDC:6168 (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

It seems clear from the rest of the context that Matthias would have been working near the Black Sea and not in Africa. Probably there needs to be a disambiguation page about the two Aethiopias, and a new page called something like Aethiopia (Colchis) or Aethiopia (Caucasus). I need to figure out how to create a disambiguation page. I've added a link to the text of the 19th century article on the "Egyptian military colony" cited in note 'a' and reference 5.

According to the Aethiopia entry, the Greek form of the place name, transliterated Aithiopia, appears in the Iliad, the Odyssey, Hesiod, and Herodotus. Herodotus equates it with the African kingdom centered in Meroë, see Kingdom of Kush, in what later became known Nubia. The Tanakh Hebrew biblical texts use an apparently phonetically related term to Kush, see Cush (Bible), and according to the Aethiopia entry, when the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew biblical texts was made in the third century BCE, Kush/Cush was rendered as Aethiopia. Possibly there is an elision here of transition from Aithiopia to Aethiopia with the translation of the Septuagint into Latin for the Roman church's Latin Vulgate bible, which in turn shaped the King James Version English bible translation.

Aithiopia/Kush/Nubia was closely connected to Egypt from the New Kingdom period onward, with periods when Egypt ruled it, while in the 25th Dynasty Egypt was conquered and ruled by Kushite pharoahs. The connection continued in the Ptolomaic Hellenistic period and under Roman rule.

Herodotus among other things reported that the people who lived in Colchis were connected to Egypt and Aithiopia and that his contemporaries (5th century BCE) in both places recognized the connection. As the article by English philologist Hyde Clarke from 1874 cited in reference 5 shows, Herodotus was also the source of the idea of an Egyption military colony in Colchis. Herodotus believed that an Egyptian pharaoh whom he called Sesostris had conducted warfare as far north as the Caucasus, and across Asia Minor and into a small part of Europe. Today many scholars identify the name Sesostris with the Middle Kingdom ruler Senusret III (1878-1839 BCE) while a smaller identify it with New Kingdom ruler Ramesses II (1279-1213 BCE). And it has also been known since the early or mid-19th century that the furthest north any ancient Egyptian ruler conducted warfare was the Levant. So a literal colony of Egyptian soldiers left behind in Colchis as the source of the name Aethiopia at the time of Matthias' evangelism is impossible. Hyde Clarke acknowledges this, so his article doesn't support the Egyptian military camp theory. He was nonetheless interested in possible philological connections between the language of Colchis and ancient Egyptian, an idea that modern linguistics would not support.

On the other hand, Hyde's article does support the idea that educated people in the early Christian era knew of the purported relationship between Egypt/Nubia/Aethiopia in Africa, and Colchis. Such awareness might explain how the rural people away from the cities in Colchis mentioned in the later-collected and later-surviving reports of Mattias' activities and possible death there came to be referred to as Aethiopians. Colchis was remote from Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch -- the great Roman cities in the early Empire -- and one of the furthest ends of the Roman realm to the northeast, as reflected in the phrase "from the Pillars of Hercules to Colchis." It was also in a way a northern mirror of Aethiopia to the south of Egypt -- what lay beyond was largely a mystery. Its realities were unlikely to be well-known in more central places. Conversely, Herodotus was well-known, and his work was held in prestige. So if a story came that Matthias had been killed in Colchis, someone looking for a way to say what that meant might well have looked to Herodotus' characterization of the connection to Aethiopia.

I will try make time to edit the article to bring this conclusion into the notes/references in an appropriately encyclopedic way.

Requested move 13 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum 18:54, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

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Saint Matthias → Matthias the Apostle – For consistency with highly related Christian religious figure articles, including: Andrew the Apostle, Bartholomew the Apostle, John the Apostle, Jude the Apostle, Matthew the Apostle, Paul the Apostle, Philip the Apostle and Thomas the Apostle, and per the clergy guideline WP:NCWC that dissuades from the use of 'Saint' unless it is the only option for disambiguation. ~ Iskandar323 (talk) 17:49, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Support Don't see why not. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 19:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

• Support per WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Current title indefensible. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:47, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Acts of Apostles Authored Date

63 AD is too early. It should 80-100 As stated in the link to the topic. Either that or there is something confusing about that sentence I'm not getting. 2601:602:781:6250:D9C7:F40A:E647:1726 (talk) 03:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)