Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Lir/Evidence/Defense

Yes I'm reading Lir, since you asked. Martin 16:38, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

And it appears you don't believe me, judging from your most recent comments, or else have failed to spot this talk page. Martin 19:40, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A question

You wondered if we had questions. We have the following proposed ruling:

Lir is required to declare all Wikipedia accounts that he has ever used. Where allegations of his use of specific accounts have been made, such as the list provided by Tim Starling, Lir is required to state which of these accounts he has ever used. Lir stated on IRC, log User:Anthere/Guanaco and Lir "Lir i have three sysop accounts". These must also be identified. Lir has one week from the passing of this temporary order to make these declarations.

Please answer the questions implicit in that ruling. Thanks. Martin 22:50, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have already declared all my accounts. They are listed at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lir/Evidence Lirath Q. Pynnor

You have not answered my questions. In that declaration, you write "Some Others I'm Sure". Please declare these others accounts. Please additionally identify the three sysop accounts that you claim to have. Thanks. Martin 18:27, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(Lir deleted this Q a second time, stating "use user talk pages for questions", and commenting on [[user talk:MyRedDice): Martin, I have answered your questions. I have never claimed to have three sysop accounts. As for having some other accounts, which are not listed; I am sure that, somewhere, there is an account that I have forgotten about it. Lirath Q. Pynnor

This isn't a matter for user talk pages, because we are an arbitration committee, and we are reviewing this case jointly. If you make a further attempt to delete this content, I will have to consider it an attempt to obstruct the arbitration process.

Let me refresh your memory: your claim to have three sysop accounts is recorded in User:Anthere/Guanaco and Lir. Does that refresh your memory? Do you have three sysop accounts, and if so, what are they? Martin

Martin, my defense page is my defense page -- just because you are on the arbitration committee, does not give you the right to determine what is (or isn't) part of my defense page. As I have stated to you before, I do not have any sysop accounts and I have never claimed to.
- Anthere does not speak for me; she has previously called me a "fruitcake" and made other disparaging remarks. She is aware of my belief that she should be fired from the mediation committee -- I do not see why you would believe her accusation that I have three sysop accounts. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Restored again. Stop obstructing arbitration.

According to the IRC log Anthere posted, you claimed to have three sysop accounts. However, you state here that you have never claimed to have three sysop accounts.

Please review the IRC log at User:Anthere/Guanaco and Lir. According to that IRC log, you had an extensive conversation with Anthere and others. Do you recall that conversation at all? Or did Anthere make the entire conversation up? I copy the relevant snippet here.

Lir: I showed up at the Saddam Hussein article because I felt ESH had made some legitimate edits there

Anthere: where the edits the same ?

Anthere: were

SethIlys: We don't know of any situation where a user gained admin status through two different accounts, do we?

Guanaco: yes

Anthere: hates hhhhh

Lir: i have three sysop accounts

Again, does any of this jog your memory? Martin 13:01, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have told you three times now, I neither have 3 sysop accounts...nor have I ever claimed to have them. I do not recall talking to Anthere, and I don't appreciate you using my defense page as a talk page. I hope I do not have to repeat all this a fourth time. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Since I have your attention, I intend to discuss here until we get to the bottom of this, at which point I may certainly choose to move it somewhere more appropriate. A supplementary question. Are you claiming that the conversation recorded at the IRC log at User:Anthere/Guanaco and Lir did not take place? Martin 10:59, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

He was obviously just joking around about the three sysop accounts. Fred Bauder 11:58, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

Well that's a reasonable conclusion. Lir doesn't seem to be claiming that. Lir is apparently claiming that the IRC conversation recorded by Anthere simply did not happen. That's quite a claim, and I want to clarify that he is indeed making that claim. Martin 12:04, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Claiming "I do not recall" is not the same thing as claiming "It did not happen" even if the first statement implies the second. Lir is being very careful not to actually call Anthere a liar. theresa knott 17:54, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also, can you confirm that you have not created, used or logged in to any of the following accounts:

Thanks. Martin 12:04, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've already confirmed that, Now got this crap of the page, this is not a talk page. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I do not have three sysop accounts, nor have I ever claimed to. I have never had a lengthy conversation with anyone on IRC. I am not User:Editing Saddam Hussein; nor do I do know who created the following user accounts: *insert lengthy list of random names here* -- Lir

Thank you for confirming that you did not create, use, or log in to the user accounts listed above. Now, I've asked this question before, and I'm going to keep asking it until I get a straight answer:

Are you claiming that the conversation recorded at the IRC log at User:Anthere/Guanaco and Lir did not take place?

Yes or no answer will be fine. Thanks. My edits to this page do not prevent you from editing this page, or from presenting a defence. As I indicated, I will move this conversation elsewhere once it is concluded in a satisfactory manner. Martin 16:51, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reinstated. Please answer the question. I'm not going to make guesses about whether you consider User:Anthere/Guanaco and Lir to be a "lengthy conversation". Martin 17:13, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Lir reverted (of course, and wrote:

I do not have three sysop accounts, nor have I ever claimed to. I do not recall ever having a conversation with anyone on IRC (that includes User:Anthere -- and yes Martin, my answer is NO). I am not User:Editing Saddam Hussein, who has been accused of reverting an article 4 times within one day (although, looking at the edit history, I dispute that the user is guilty of that). Since my reinstatment, I have only used other accounts (ie: User:Qwert) with the explicit permission of Jimbo Wales -- on those accounts, I committed no crimes, and there is no rule against using multuple accounts. I do know who created the following user accounts: *insert lengthy list of random names here*

Emphasis mine. Martin 22:47, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)