Talk:Supertramp (album)

Rick Davies does not sing in Shadow Song

People, stop reverting my edits. Rick Davies doesn't sing a word on Shadow Song. In fact, he doesn't sing a word on the entire album except for a shared lead vocal on Nothing to Show. Richard Palmer-James is the one who sings Shadow Song accompanied by Hodgson. Just compare the main voice in this song with the main voice in Maybe I'm a Beggar. It's the same man ! Palmer clearly commited a mistake. He only recorded this album with Supertramp and it was a very long time ago, so he had two reasons not to remember its recording quite well. If a source says 2+2=5, is it wise to put this information in an article or to conclude it was an obvious mistake that shouldn't be considered as fact ? If you are all deaf or can't hear the clear difference between Palmer's gentle, soft voice and Davies' rough and bluesy one, then at least put something like "information disputed" near the singing credit for that song. But really, I think this article desperatly needs supervision from Supertramp real fans, not temporary fans who only enjoy It's Raining Again and The Logical Song. (Clausgroi (talk) 02:27, 31 March 2014 (UTC))

(1)You need to give "Shadow Song" a more careful listen. It is clearly not Palmer singing there, as multiple editors have already noted. Davies is capable of singing in more than just a "rough and bluesy" tone. (2)Your "the source doesn't matter" is in obvious violation of Wikipedia's fundamental principles, and more importantly, it's obvious that you don't believe it yourself, as demonstrated by your editing the article to falsely claim that the source says Palmer sang lead on the song, rather than just removing the source. (3)"information disputed" is just as much a deceit as "Palmer sang lead on Shadow Song". All available sources concur that the lead is by Davies and Hodgson, so there is no dispute. (4)Saying that everyone who opposes your edits are not "real fans" does not lend weight to your position. Quite the contrary.--NukeofEarl (talk) 14:07, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok, here we go... 1) I did, many times, then (not in the 70s, but when I first heard it) and now. I love this album and I must confess that Shadow Song is one of my favourites. Not for a moment did I ever mistake the singer: it's Palmer all the way, accompanied by a soft harmony by Hodgson. Excuse me, "multiple editors have already noted" ? No, they didn't. They say it's Davies because the source does. It's not even an opinion. If it's written there, I think most people don't even bother to listen to it to check if the source is right. The thing is not only the very unique style of Davies's singing, but his actual voice. It's not about tone, it's about timbre. Davies has got a very nasal and unsmooth voice. It just doesn't sound like the one we hear in Shadow Song, which is very smooth, crisp and not nasal at all. And hey, don't you ever forget we are humans beings and commit mistakes. If you really think you're going to convince me that Richard Palmer is a perfect human that is not liable, not subject to error, I can tell you beforehand that you won't succeed. 2) Show me where I said "the source doesn't matter" or "is not important". I really think you misunderstood what I said. My opinion is that we have to be sceptical even about sources. If it makes sense, I think it's OK to believe it. If it doesn't, it MUST be contested. We can't simply believe it because it is "the indisputable truth". To quote Davies, we can't just claim "I believe in what you say. Is the undisputed truth". There is no entire and pure truth such as a dogma. If we keep on this, the discussion will turn into a philosophical one, and that's not my intention, but I hope you understood my point of view. If we consider all we read in sources to be true, then there really is a God and Jesus walked over water and brought a deadman back to life, simply because this is written in the Bible and, therefore, as a source, must be true. Also, let's not put religion into it, I just wrote this as an example, ok ? "...as demonstrated by your editing the article to falsely claim that the source says Palmer sang lead on the song, rather than just removing the source". Where did I say this ? I think the one making false claims here is you. I would never lie saying the source states Palmer is the singer. It says Davies is, and I think Palmer commited a mistake, as I said before. 3) "All available sources" ? You mean... one ? And "information disputed" wouldn't be a lie because someone is, indeed, disputing the information given by the source: me. 4) Ok, I might have exagerated here, but I do believe a loyal Supertramp fan would not confuse the singers' voices. No diehard Beatles fan confuses John and Paul. Let's not be hypocrite ! However, I recognise this is not really an argument and doesn't prove my point, but rather more like a personal opinion.Clausgroi (talk) 22:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

You gotta love Clausgroi's egotism, though; he has no problem with basically posting "I'm right and Calamity, Richard Palmer, all the other editors to this article, and Wikipedia's policies are all wrong, and if I say that 2+2=5 you should all accept it as WP: TRUTH no matter how many sources say that 2+2=4!" Anyway, yeah, the question of who sang lead on "Shadow Song" was settled a while ago. The track is a rare instance where Davies sings without affectation, so you can more easily recognize it as him by comparing it to his speaking voice. Basically, it sounds like Davies and Hodgson, and Richard Palmer and Calamity say it's Davies and Hodgson, so there's no reason for Wikipedia to not say that it's Davies and Hodgson.--Martin IIIa (talk) 18:30, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Wow, you really understand what you read ! You twisted my words so falsely that I don't even know where to start. I think I'm just going to ignore everything you said in quotes. Anyway, this is not a matter of being egotist, it's a matter of a passionable fan disputing a claim that seems to be wrong, even if it was said by an original member of the group. You are confusing things: it's not about the singing itself, but the voice, the timbre. I explained more about this question to NukeofEarl above. Your "lack of affectation" excuse for (allegedly) Davies's singing was, at the sime time, funny, a little ridiculous and a proof that you agree with me that the voice in Shadow Song is very different from Davies's. Otherwise, why would you invent an excuse to explain his totally different singing ? We heard Davies singing very calmly and passionately many times throughout Supertramp's career (e.g., Downstream). Not a single one of them sounds like Shadow Song. Also, listen to a YouTube video interview with him called "Rick Davies talking about Supertramp performing and his career". I know it's recent and his voice changed a bit, but the timbre remains basically the same and it sounds nothing like the gentle voice from Shadow Song. Even the accent in the song is different from his usual American bluesy accent. Actually, the falsetto parts are the ones I think proof more than any other that the man singing is not Davies. We all know how funny Davies's falsettos sound; just listen to Goodbye Stranger ! And, if you're still not convinced, listen to the other song sung by Palmer (preferably a high-definition digital version, not an old LP): the voice from 0:42 to 0:48 in Maybe I'm a Beggar is definitely the same from Shadow Song. Note that Palmer's voice trembles a bit on the word "much" from "I ain't got too much sense". It's the same trembling voice from "figure" in "figure on a lamplit wall". Listen to the whole song if you please, you'll surely notice the similarities; they are evident. Just don't say to me that it is Rick Davies singing Maybe I'm a Beggar as well ! Also, Calamity doesn't say anything about Rick singing on the song. The source for that is the interview with Richard Palmer done in 2011, 41 years after the album's recording, one of the reasons why I truly think he didn't remember that information quite well.Clausgroi (talk) 22:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

For both of you, read this certified review of the album in which the writer states "Turns out Rick Davies sings lead on only one song ("Nothing to Show"), meaning all the rest of the vocals are handled by Hodgson (before his voice became annoying - it's actually quite good here) and Palmer": http://starling.rinet.ru/music/supertrc.htm. Read also reviews and comments from ProgArchives users regarding this LP.Clausgroi (talk) 22:32, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Your accusation that editors opposing you "don't even bother to listen to it to check if the source is right" is worse than groundless; it's patently false, since editors were saying that before the source was there. Haven't you ever heard the saying "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, especially not at houses of solid brick"?

It's fine to be skeptical about sources when you have good reason, but that Palmer might have misremembered doesn't cut it. By that logic, every source in existence is wrong about everything.

I invite you to check the article's edit history and review your own edit, because you did not remove the citation for the Palmer-James interview. You falsified what it says, just as I said. As for Calamity, I suspect Martin IIIa simply confused the two cited Palmer-James interviews and meant Supertramp Soapbox Assylum. Given the number of errors in your own posts and edits, I'd avoid attacking people over such inconsequential mistakes - remember the saying about glass houses.

There are in fact devoted Beatles who confuse John and Paul's voices. In fact, there are even devoted Police fans who confuse Sting's voice with that of Stewart Copeland! Have a look through the edit histories for the articles on the Police's songs. Finally, that link is not a "certified review". Everything on George Starostin's site is written, edited, and published by one man. His site has already been deemed an unreliable source by WikiProject Albums. Moreover, a critic can hardly be considered a better source for vocal credits than a member of the band itself. As for your claim that you fit the definition of a notable/reliable source, I can only laugh. Wikipedia editors are not only not notable/reliable sources, they are not sources at all; that's just WP: Original research.--NukeofEarl (talk) 14:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I truly believe that people who visit this article don't even notice the vocal credits. They aren't really important. Those who do don't stop to think about it. After all, if a sourced Wikipedia article is stating that, why should they bother to put it to the proof ? It's basically like "well, the source says, so it's true; why should I doubt ?", which is exactly what you say.

No, the fact that people can commit mistakes doesn't mean everything is false. It means all information in the sources MIGHT be wrong, but is probably right. As I said, if it makes sense, we assume these people are right. If it doesn't, it's more than healthy to our human need for truth to doubt it, and that's exactly what I'm doing. All I want is this article to be as closest as possible to 100% true, once 100% might not be possible. I'm not stating that my opinion is the truth or that it should be considered a source, YOU are the one saying that. All in all, it's just my opinion, and I am pretty convinced about it, just as anyone is convinced about their own opinions. If we weren't convinced about our own opinios, why even have them ?

Regarding my edits, why on earth would I remove the sources ? Do you think I'm mad or what ? That would be dishonest of me. Every source in any article is important, and I do not have the right to simply remove it because I want to or disagree with it. I haven't "falsified" anything, I don't even know why you're saying that. YOU are the one falsifying things here, saying I said things I have NOT said. I've never said, for example, that my opinion was expressed in the source. It's more than obvious that my opinion goes against the source, and that's the only reason why I'm writing all this !

The source Supertramp Soapbox Assylum is exactly the one which contains the interview with Richard Palmer. You and Martin said several times things like "all the sources...", but you two probably forgot that Supertramp Soapbox Assylum is the ONLY source which states Rick Davies sang lead on Shadow Song. If you showed me another interview with Palmer, published in a different year, where he stated again "Rick sang Shadow Song", I would have to be humble enough to admit that my opinion had about 1% of chance of being right. However, as we all see, that interview is the only one we've got about who sings lead on Shadow Song, and that's exactly the one I think is wrong because Palmer is subject to misremember some very distant and unimportant details about a band that he was in 41 years before the interview.

No, a diehard Beatles fan knows, and quite well, who is who, to the point of knowing who sang the line "she loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah" on the outro of All You Need Is Love (John) and who shouted "I got blisters on my fingers !" at the very end of Helter Skelter (Ringo). There's a huge difference between a casual fan a maniac one. A casual fan might not even know the names of the members, whilst a beatlemaniac knows the birth and death dates of all 6 members (including Stu and Pete), their parents, the number of their old houses in Liverpool etc. No way a dedicated fan could mistake his or her favourite singers' voices.

"As for your claim that you fit the definition of a notable/reliable source...". You see ? I have never said this. Stop making this discussion a Greek tragedy about the villain who says he is almighty and right about everything and the good boy who is humble and believes what the source says because the source says so.

I'm really curious: after all this debate, which is being written by civilised gentlemen in the appropriate space and has no reason not to be, have you listened to Shadow Song again to check it ? Have you compared the first vocal, which sings the first stanza alone and is joined by harmony vocals afterwards, with the one in Maybe I'm a Beggar, which was surely sung by Palmer because *the source says so* ? Do you really believe that the man singing gently in Shadow Song is the same one who sang Asylum, Bloody Well Right, Lover Boy, Gone Hollywood, Downstream and Casual Conversations, amongst others ? Do you believe that the crisp, clean and soft falsetto in the middle of Shadow Song was sung by the same man who sang the lousy falsetto on Goodbye Stranger (and I'm not demeaning Davies because I love him and probably like him even more than Hodgson) ? If you do, then you have something that I don't: faith (believing in something even knowing that it is probably not true). I just want to know what you think as a Supertramp fan and music listener, so don't answer "of course I do; it's in the source !". Clausgroi (talk) 20:45, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Forgive my bluntness here, but both you guys are giving this issue way more energy than it merits. Clausgroi's proposal is to replace sourced content in the article with his original research. Wikipedia:No original research is one of Wikipedia's core content policies, so we can't do that. Simple as that. If Clausgroi cannot understand and accept the No original research policy, then he should talk to a mod or admin for assistance; discussion of Wikipedia's core content policies is beyond the scope of this talk page.--Martin IIIa (talk) 22:43, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, I know that nothing I say will change anything here. The article is still going to be like that even after all this debate. The only thing that would change it would be a new interview with Palmer, Davies or Hodgson about that. Although I don't consider that impossible, I think it's unlikely. Anyway, I still want to know the opinion of both of you, that is, if you two really think it's Davies singing Shadow Song. This is a "talk" page, so let's do that. Tell me what you sincerely think and we'll end this discussion once and for all, unless new evidence shows up. Clausgroi (talk) 23:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Martin IIIa - Thanks, I do admit that I lost perspective for a minute there. Clausgroi - I'm pretty sure we both already said that in our first posts here. It's under point (1) in mine.--NukeofEarl (talk) 23:35, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Update about lead vocal on Shadow Song edit war

A user named "Trsupertramp" has just changed the vocal credit on Shadow Song to "Palmer". I swear it's not me. He doesn't have a profile and this is the only contribution he has made. I don't rule out the possibility that it is a kind of bad joke by someone who saw this debate or even a fraudulent attempt to "incriminate" me by making it seem as though I created another account to change that information. Clausgroi (talk) 13:06, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

No need to plead innocence; no one's accusing you. Assume good faith is a well-known Wikipedia policy. Besides, if it were you, I'd expect you to be posting as "Trsupertramp" on this talk page.--Martin IIIa (talk) 22:46, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I'm trsupertramp, from Norway, and I changed the vocal credit on shadow song. It was based on a misunderstanding. trsupertramp (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:48, 15 April 2014 (UTC)